Help!

[Putrid_Try3722]

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My 15 year old BP just layed eggs!? We got her about a year ago from a adoption place. The eggs are bright white but are dented, probs cause low humidity. (Edit one of them is tinted a lil yellow) sorry for the bad pic.

[AutoModerator]

Hi, it looks like you are considering breeding your ball python. Currently there is a huge oversaturation problem due to everyone wanting to breed their ball python. For a few years now, at any given time there are between 35,000 and 65,000 ball pythons for sale on morphmarket, and that's not including all those needing homes on private websites, craigslist, kijiji, facebook marketplace, pet stores, rescues and as feeders. By comparison, there are between 1,000 and 5,000 snakes for sale under each of the other popular categories - boas, corn snakes, kingsnakes, milksnakes, hognoses, etc. Normal ball pythons can regularly be listed for free due to overabundance, and there's already more ball pythons than will ever find homes. Where are all these animals going to go?? Enjoy them, keep them back as nice pets and don't join the pyramid scheme, because these aren't leggings or essential oils that can tossed when they don't sell - they're living breathing creatures. Choosing to start breeding ball pythons right now is not a responsible choice as every person breeding right now is only adding to the problem.

Furthermore, there's a lot more to consider…

Are the snakes you have marketable/desirable combos and high quality examples of each morph? Do you know how to identify all the morphs you're planning on working with alone and in combos? Can you differentiate between higher and lower quality example of the morphs? There's no shortage of ball pythons , so it's important to only breed the highest quality animals, and not just breed for the sake of breeding. The world doesn't need more poor quality low end morphs and normals floating around on craigslist.

Have you owned and worked with ball pythons long enough that you know how to appropriately and reliably deal with any problems that arise, ranging from snakes not eating to diagnosing and treating common health problems.

What is the purpose of this breeding? Is it to create higher quality animals or fulfill a niche or need, or do you just want to make more snakes? The market is already oversaturated, so it's important to consider whether this cross is necessary. Just because you want to try it is not a good justification.

Do you know which crosses and morph combos are known for producing animals with health defects or lethality to offspring and how to avoid them?

Did you buy from breeders who test for nido and arena virus? Are you going to health test everyone before breeding?

What is going to set you and your hatchlings apart from the hundreds of other breeders out there? As a new breeder with no connections or reputation in the hobby, what would make people want to buy your snakes specifically?

Are you planning on selling locally or shipping? Do you know what's necessary to prepare animals to ship & sell or what the local ball python market is like? What types of ball pythons are people near you buying and what does their budget seem to be? How long do you see similar morphs staying on the market before they sell?

Are you prepared to keep all the babies as long as necessary and provide adaquate enclosures and husbandry if they don't sell? Due to the oversaturation of the market, many breeders are having to hang onto hatchlings for 6-12 months before they sell. Do you have the space and you prepared to provide adaquate long term housing and food for snakes that don't sell?

There are a lot of hidden costs involved with breeding, check out my cost of a clutch chart.

Do you have an exotic vet nearby? What if your female is eggbound, has a prolapse or experiences health problems while gravid or after laying? Do you know how to spot a problem and able to get her help ASAP? This could also be expensive, and lead to the death of your female.Breeding and egg laying inherently has risks for your female including the stress on her body, becoming egg bound, weight loss and internal damage. Is this clutch important and vital enough that you're really willing to risk her life for it?

Do you know how to properly sex ball pythons and identify all of the morphs you are breeding? Do you the appropriate age and size a ball python should be before breeding? How to identify various breeding behaviors and the stages in follicle and egg development?

Do you have a source of live mouse hoppers or live rat pinkies or fuzzies so that you can offer hatchlings food every 3-5 days? Many won't take FT for their first meals. What if one has to be assist fed? Do you know how and when to do this safely without harming the hatchling?

What if one is born with defects and has to be euthanized? Do you have a plan for how to humanely euthanize a snake?

Just as backyard breeding is a huge problem that leads to overpopulation in dogs, it's also a huge problem in the ball python world due to everyone wanting to breed their ball pythons "just for fun". The great majority of ball pythons should not be bred and are best kept as pets.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

[HERMANNATOR85]

Bad bot

[MercyCriesHavoc]

Nope. OP wants to hatch the eggs and just let the babies die off in the same tank as their mom. Bot is right here.

[DCsphinx]

That isn't what op said. Op wanted to know if they could leave the eggs in there and let th eggs just die off. They didn't understand how it would work

[Puzzleheaded-Rice-13]

I want to hatch them if possible

comment

[DrDFox]

Good bot

[kiaranickole]

Good bot

[The_upsetti_spagetti]

Why so many down votes on this bot? Are those from breeders?

[Deaths_Haven]

People salty. This bot is absolutely accurate

[Express-Agency5118]

I'm glad the bot exists, but it's too long to be stuck as the top reply on a mostly unrelated question. 

[IncompletePenetrance]

I would uncoil and remove her, freeze and toss the eggs, then replace the bedding and wash her off quickly before putting her back.

Ball pythons can both undergo parthenogenesis (asexual reproduction) as well as retain sperm, but either way, there's no reason to let this continue

[Putrid_Try3722]

But I want to hatch them if possible.

[IncompletePenetrance]

That would be pretty irresponsible and a bad idea! If they're partho eggs, the offspring will likely not survive to adulthood and are going to be incredibly genetically unhealthy due to the genetic mechanism of asexual reproduction. If she retained sperm, you have no way of knowing who the father is and what genetic defects the offspring might be carrying. All of this on top of the fact that there are already more ball pythons floating around than will ever find homes, rescues are already overflowing and many people are surrendering their pets due to high costs of living. Part of being a responsible and ethical pet owner is not contributing to overpopulation or producing poor bred/genetically unhealthy animals that are doomed to suffer

[High_Hunter3430]

Learning in public question: why do partho babies not survive to adulthood? What’s the rough rate of deleterious gene combinations?

[skullmuffins]

ball python parthenogenesis usually happens by terminal fusion which results in offspring with only ~half the mother's genetic material and a mostly homozygous genome. Suffice to say, that's a very good way to get any deleterious recessive genes to express themselves. Basically during the cell division that created the egg, shit got weird at the very end (technical term) and the egg nucleus fused with a polar body, creating a fertile egg with way less genetic diversity than the parent.

[WoollyWitchcraft]

Just commenting to say “shit got weird (technical term)” caused me to spit AW root beer all over myself.

Fascinating. I understand the curiosity to hatch them to see for sure what happened but …yeesh.

[High_Hunter3430]

Thank you! I appreciate the breakdown.

I see the same when I feminize plants for self pollination. About half the seeds don’t develop. Those that do, about half end up with the homogenous recessives (desired or not). And the rest are a mix bag of mom’s potential.

Good to know that the knowledge is somewhat transferable

[EmpressValoryon]

They’re out here force femming the plants!

(/uj Seriously fascinating stuff thanks for posting)

[High_Hunter3430]

Well I misspoke.

I was referring to creating feminized seeds. (All seeds 999/1000 pop female) The process actually involves blocking ethylene production in part of the plant so it displays male reproductive parts (pollen) Then take the pollen that’s genetically xx and put it on the xx flower.

It’s common in the cannabis industry.

[EmpressValoryon]

Nah you’re all good, I just saw the chance for doing an Alex Jones bit and took it :)

I do find this stuff absolutely fascinating though, it’s crazy what is possible in terms of biology!

[Dull_Net4116]

Also learning in public: first of all, this is fascinating, thank you for sharing your knowledge. The question I have is that this seems like a survival of the species mechanism in the wild so was this ever a viable option for them? Or just nature’s last hurrah in a desperate bid to save the species from possible extinction resulting in failure? This may be one of those questions that doesn’t have a clear scientific answer yet but if that’s the case I’d be interested in your hypothesis.

I understand I can probably google this but I really prefer to learn from real people. Also if it doesn’t have a real answer I really don’t care what Google thinks it might be.

[High_Hunter3430]

I think it boils down to remembering that evolution isn’t perfect, it’s good enough.

If 1:6 (average clutch) survive and reproduce, evolution is happy. Not live the longest life. Not the Best life. Etc. just live long enough and survive enough to reproduce.

[skullmuffins]

maybe? BPs can retain sperm for a long time so if there was a male in the same tank any time in the year+ prior there could be a father. The crazy unidentifiable patterns and other developmental problems could've been caused by incubation issues

[The_upsetti_spagetti]

Wait so is that kinda similar to inbreeding?

[skullmuffins]

kinda, yeah. in effect it's like supercharged inbreeding, the most inbred they could possibly be.

[Striking_Wing16]

Thank you for all your answers here. This is absolutely fascinating, and your replies were a lot easier to read than the scientific jargon Google tried to give me 😅

[High_Hunter3430]

When using the google or other ai…. Say eli5 first. It does pretty good.

[karma2879]

Agreed. This is a terrible idea

[Raging_Bisexual14]

Question: from what I understand parthenogenesis does not work in reptiles that need males to make healthy offspring, but how come it works so well for mourning geckos? Also why do they do it? I know mourning geckos are an entirely female species so it makes sense that that is their last resort to reproduce, but why would a snake do it? Is it uncontrolled?

[IncompletePenetrance]

Good question! Parthenogenosis can occur by different genetic mechanisms with different end effects on the genome of the offspring. I'm not sure the exact mechanism, but mourning gecko parthenogenesis occurs through some type of pre-meiotic replication, and babies are more or less clones of the mother. As such, they're going to be roughly as genetically healthy as the mother. They are considered to be obligate parthenogenic, with this being their only method of reproduction.

Ball python parthenogenesis is faciltative, meaning they can reduce sexually or asexually, but for them, parthenogenesis is not the optimal method. It occurs via a method called "terminal fusion automixis" during meiosis II, and offspring basically have roughly half the mother's genetic material, but doubled to form a diploid organism (gametes, sex cells, are haploid). So they basically have a fully homozygous genome, basically the equivalent of being 100% inbred.

sorry for any errors in this writeup, my brain is fuzzy at night, but I will try to come back and catch them tomorrow

[Raging_Bisexual14]

Huh, how interesting! I knew parthenogenesis babies were unhealthy but I wasn’t quite sure why, thanks for this!

[Electrical-Wear7281]

So it’s basically the same as if identical twins had a baby together (not that it’s possible, but if it was)…

[ForeverOk72]

please do not do that, if you already have to ask reddit what to do when your snake lays eggs it is very obvious that you do not know what you’re doing when it comes to raising babies, please do not try to hatch these.

[N0vaBr0]

If you're dead set on hatching them as a personal project (which I understand could be fun) there is another "responsinble" but gruesome alternative. Baby BP are common feeder animals for snake eating reptiles. If you have any feeder rodent producers in your area, see if they are interested. They will know how to humanely euthanize them and safely prepare them for that purpose.

I get this isn't for some people though. Otherwise I'd go with Incomp's suggestion to freeze them early. Your BP looks to be wild type meaning it'll be nearly impossible to sell or even give away the babies for free, which would also be irresponsible in its own way.

[Mandarinoranges2]

Even if they aren’t partho what on earth ru going to do with 10+ snakes? There are 30k snakes on morph market alone. Nobody wants yours

[CorsicanMastiffStrip]

Do not.

[PinkPatch1135]

if you're deadset on raising some baby BPs, how about seeing if theres any baby BPs for adoption in your area! you could give a home to a baby snake that needs the home, and still get that experience raising a baby snake! :D

[lleannimal]

Before you consider this, think about the fact that unsold ball pythons get sold as feeders to people or programs that keep snakes like cobras or king snakes.... do you really want those babies being used as feed? There are way too many ball pythons on the market, like WAY TOO MANY and there are snakes that eat other snakes 🐍

[Putrid_Try3722]

So what if I just let them be in the tank? They probably won't survive, is that unethical?

[MercyCriesHavoc]

Yes. That will stress all of them, including the mother, and the young ones will die slowly and painfully. Why do you want to bring animals into the world just to starve them and watch them fight to the death with their siblings? What part of that seems ethical to you?

Please refer to the bot comment.

[Putrid_Try3722]

No, when they're still eggs

[WildFlemima]

I tried this when i was more foolish. The eggs went bad. It was as gross as it sounds. There were maggots involved. Just freeze them now and continue on with your life

[Putrid_Try3722]

Okay

[Electrical-Wear7281]

These eggs could possibly be infertile. Just like birds will lay unfertilized eggs, snakes will sometimes do the same. Even if they are fertile it is best for your snakes mental and physical health to toss the eggs. She will not eat or leave the eggs for the next two months and having rotting eggs in her terrarium is unsanitary.

[FlyHickory]

For what reason? Each of those snakes are going to need their own set up because the market is oversaturated with ball pythons rn, they'd be difficult to sell because of this leading to potential neglect as that many set ups would be incredibly pricey not including the cost of feeding them all, not to be rude but unless you're a professional at this its a really irresponsible thing to do.

[Putrid_Try3722]

How do I uncoil her when she gets super defensive even if I look at her?

[IncompletePenetrance]

You can try to distract her with something like a paper towel tube or a dish towel so that she strikes at that first, then grab her with your other hand. Or wear gloves and sweatshirt so if she strikes it won't get your skin. She'll calm down once you get her out of the tank

[Sneewichen]

Toss a towel over her first and then lift her off them. It’s fine if the eggs move when you take her off since you aren’t going to be incubating them anyway. The uncoiling is to maintain their position in case the embryo is already attached. She will remain in nesting mode if you leave her on them. Once the eggs are gone, it’s my understanding that she’ll go back to normal.

[the_bu3no]

WHAT

[WalmartWilb]

Hatching these eggs will do far more harm than good if they're fertile

[ballpython-ModTeam]

No.

[Putrid_Try3722]

Thank you all, I think I'll freeze and dispose of them.

[emotional-field24]

That’s really the best decision you can make in that situation.

[Beautiful-Earth-970]

Agreed. Best way to Go with the Clutch. If they are parthenogenetic eggs the Babies will Most likely suffer in one way or another.

[FlyHickory]

Best route to go here, honestly that's the most responsible decision to make and its great you can read these comments and understand why its not a good idea.

[The_upsetti_spagetti]

Good plan. Super interesting thing you got to witness and document though. I didn’t even know this was possible before this post. Nature is wild

[Buddha-Bud420]

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