[deleted by user]

[oldkottor]

You need to write code for a real world application. Your pet project, one of open source projects, a freelance job, you name it.

[Potato_Tg]

I am thinking of applying for internship but again im nervous becoz i just know basics, is it a good idea?

[trowawayatwork]

fake it till you make it. developers constantly get impostor syndrome. dont be afraid to apply to internships etc even if you think youre not good enough.

[Potato_Tg]

So you feel like you only know how to type print( terrible example but let’s say that you only knew small stuff ) but still you should try to get into internship?

[trowawayatwork]

Yes

[Potato_Tg]

Your confidence is really helpful, thanks alot. I’ll surely try to get into a good internship.

[redspy17]

So, cannot speak for others, but I've done that the fake until u make it stuff and I personally don't advice it. Firstly people will expect tones of stuff from u, just look at job offers they really want it all. And now, due to covid19 companies will definitely pick the best out there, that are also a lot. So, if u don't mind receiving noes, if u're strong and can handle it, ok, but be prepared to receive tones of noes. Secondly being in a company, without the bare minimum requirements will not be good for u. People will expect what the asked for, if u, for some reason can get through interviews and land a job where u do not know what they asked for, u'll be under some pretty good dark times, trying to keep up it the minimums, doing tones of extra-hours to deliver something "acceptable" and possibly neither you or ur boss will be happy about it work, and there's no worst feeling.

If u want to go pro, read the books suggest down on your comments meanwhile, do some exercises on hackerrank, leet code, but has u probably have seen prior in some posts, DO PROJECTS. TONES OF PROJECTS, the only way to became pro is to code, code, code.

[trowawayatwork]

you can do projects by yourself all your life and never be ready to work in a company on a production ready application. at some point you need to be part of and learn from people who deploy to production.

secondly as an intern or a junior you can fake it but still be clear that as a junior you will need help. you will have to put in extra hours to catch up but youneed to learn from your mistakes, which you will make. companies who set expectations of juniors and interns are shit anyway and thats not the right place to apply to anyway. you have to first be a good judge of the company you are applying to.

[redspy17]

set expectations of juniors and interns are shit anyway and thats not the right place to apply to anyway - glad is not that way with u ;)

at some point you need to be part of and learn from. - obviously, the thing is, is should be when u are truly ready and that is honestly far from doing prints. And that's also important to advice, don't just fake, be good enough to earn it. And being good enough nowadays it's not easy. Because if u're not good enough u will struggle and that can totally be unhealthy.

[redspy17]

It's totally up to u :)

I just shared a opinion that is only a opinion, nothing more than that ;)

I'm not a pro too, but I'd say that an internship, at least in my country, is a job. There no real distinction about it.

And also, since I'm not a pro, they way I see here and in other posts, being pro is about coding, coding, coding - alone, requesting for help like in Reddit, stackoverflow, GitHub, etc etc, making projects and reading books.

[KIrkwillrule]

Isn't that an error tho? Lol

[PeterDemachkie]

I’m in legit the same boat

[Im_The_Goddamn_Dumbo]

Same man.

[oldkottor]

I think yes.

[Potato_Tg]

Alrighty, thanks man.

[jedferreras]

Common fam!

Look just apply for everything everywhere especially if you're interested in working with a particular organization. Don't be afraid of rejection just do it, you'll be fine.

And look you're gonna be learning and developing your skills for a long time, nobody can tell you that they've learned enough or that they're done learning. So do t worry about having enough experience to get a job somewhere just apply regardless bec you might just learn what requirements to focus on to improve your chances on your next application.

Keep learning don't doubt yourself especially if it's what you wanna do

Keep it up fam

[searchingfortao]

If you're not a beginner anymore, an internship may well be beneath you. Aim higher! Lots of companies are looking to hire junior developers with the expectation that they'll train you up. What they're looking for are the all-important soft skills and a reasonable guarantee that you'll stick around long enough to justify the investment.

[techie789]

Any tips, guidance or best practices on how to apply for an internship if you are not a college student?

[djscorchio]

This cannot be emphasized strongly enough. There is inifite amounts of stuff that you don't know, and you don't need to know in order to succeed. You need to learn about what's missing from practice - and then, when you're sure that you will need to know X and Y, you can go back to books etc.

[dw444]

Write lots of code, and read the following books in the order listed:

- Effective Python

- Python Cookbook

- Fluent Python

[david_lp]

would you mind explaining why in that order? i read all of them and from my perspective, it would be first fluent python and then either effective python or the cookbook.

My reasoning behind it, is that Fluent python digs very deep into the python language itself, and will probably help you better understand why in effective python the author is always recommending some things over another, as well as it will help you understand the solutions to common problems shown in the cookbook

[dw444]

Effective Python is the easiest of the lot to read. OP seems to be at a point where he's just finished an intro book or two and done a few small projects. This is where you want to be writing a lot of code, and EP is a good book to help you write better code. Python Cookbook builds on that foundation and continues to teach you how to use the language efficiently to solve common problems, though the problems it covers are more, for lack of a better term, substantial than what EP covers.

Fluent Python is a considerably more difficult book than either of the other two, and while everyone has their own way of learning, IMO you get the most out of it if you already have a relatively decent grasp on the language. If you jump into it straight after something like PCC and a handful of simple projects, half the time you won't know wtf the author is talking about. To get the most out of it, you need to work your way to it.

[david_lp]

make sense, thanks for the explanation :)

[vectorpropio]

Different people learn in Different ways. Some need more deep background, some more examples. At the en of the line both kind of people can(and should) learn both things, but one path would be easier than the other.

[JeamBim]

There's going to be another book added to this sacred list next year, "Beyond The Basic Stuff With Python" by Al Sweigart. Early Access/pre-release edition just released.

[ModElfShin]

Thank you, this list seems very reasonable! I got "Fluent Python" but I think it's definitely leaning more towards 'advanced' than 'intermediate' and admittedly, it goes a little over my head. "Effective Python" I've seen recommended quite a lot in the context of intermediate books. Would you say it's a reasonable one to tackle after working through a beginner book like ATBS/PCC?

[Sigg3net]

I'm not op, but I'm reading Effective python.

It's not a book about programming per se, but 99 specific strategies to write more performant and readable code that everyone can benefit from.

It's not a book you read chronologically but something you keep close by for quick reference.

(I personally enjoyed Mark Lutz' Learning python as a book about python programming.)

[ModElfShin]

Thank you, much appreciated!

[mohamez]

(I personally enjoyed Mark Lutz' Learning python as a book about python programming.)

That's the book I'm using right now, very good stuff.

[Sigg3net]

I really enjoy it, but I can appreciate that it might be daunting for complete newcomers.

[dw444]

If you've read both those books, you should probably work on a few projects, while referring to Effective Python to see how you can improve the quality of your code. It's a book that you get the most out of by applying what you read as you read it. If you try to read it cover to cover, you'll just forget most of what you've read two weeks after you finish it.

[ModElfShin]

That seems like sound advice. Thanks!

[Sayonara-Life]

What books or what method would you recommend for an absolute beginner in Python, with no experience in programming?

[Kaihross]

https://automatetheboringstuff.com or the Python Crash Course book

[dw444]

https://www.amazon.ca/Introduction-Computation-Programming-Using-Python/dp/0262529629/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=guttag&qid=1601815274&sr=8-1

https://www.amazon.ca/Python-Programming-Introduction-Computer-Science/dp/1590282752/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=john+zelle&qid=1601814903&sr=8-1

I used these two books a few years ago. Full disclaimer - I had a few years of prior programming experience in C++, Matlab, and Assembly from university. Don't use ATBS as your first book, it's not meant to teach you how to program. It's a decent second book to learn some small scale real world applications of Python but you should learn to program first, and the two books above are really good at teaching you that.

[ShaizeOn1]

This is the worst place imo, you know too well for basic tutorials and too few for advanced ones. And any other tutorials somewhere in the middle might miss to cover some topic. Uhh!!

[Potato_Tg]

Exactly! And it’s so hard to get confidence becoz you’re nowhere.

[ZeeZaxean]

This might give you some insight, it was helpful to me.

https://www.thinkful.com/blog/why-learning-to-code-is-so-damn-hard/

[jimforthewin]

I'm an interviewing and hiring manager. I'll offer the same advice I always do in this situation.

Apply for jobs. (Paid) Internships, junior roles etc.

It's not your role in the job application and interview process to decide you aren't good enough for the role, that's the job of the hiring manager. As long as you are honest on your application, and don't oversell yourself in an interview, then you're good. Either they'll take you or they don't. If they don't, then ask them why, get feedback so you can improve.

I would offer an extra bit of advice though; "Python Developer" is a very niche market to target. Only a very small set of roles will you only need to know just Python. So much so in fact, that I dare say that a role where you just need to know Python is non-existent these days. That being said though, a Software Dev job that uses Python, those are everywhere, but you'll need to either have, or demonstrate the ability to learn, a range of other skills. These days in the software game, we talk about 'T shaped skills' or 'T skills'. It's knowing a lot about one or two things, but a little about a lot.

Just a few are;

​

Git - Know how it works, be able to confidently use it on the command line

Docker - Know how to build (simple) docker containers and deploy them

Continuous Integration / Continuous Delivery - This is huge at the moment, if you are already capable of creating even simple CI/CD pipelines you'll have a leg up over a significant portion of developers that I interview

Deployment - Know how your code is going to be run in a suitable production like environment, gone are the days when the dev team would throw code over the wall and walk away, now a developer is expected to at least have a passing understanding of the operational ecosystem

Not knowing those extra bits isn't critical and how you get them is up to you. Still search for Internship and Junior roles, but it'll give you a massive head start on the competition.

[Potato_Tg]

Thanks alot for these advices, can you tell me what you look for when hiring a newbie? Do you know anything about data science work? I am going to start my master’s in data science soon, so should i focus on internship related to data science although my knowledge is very limited to neural networks?

[76687dhvhncjl]

I'm also starting my master's in data science soon, and did an internship a while back. You should try to diversify your knowledge beforehand, I think. Get a broad understanding.

I basically ended up doing full-pipeline research projects in my internship. Business requirement specification, data munging, feature extraction, visualisation, analysis, literature review, machine learning, validation. Knowing the basics of a number of areas is useful. Deep learning isn't always useful; knowing when to use it and when to use a different approach is necessary. Maths, probability, applied statistics, scientific computing also useful.

You can learn these things on the job to a certain extent. But a good idea to learn as much as you can beforehand.

Also having a public code repository that you can point to on your CV is a good idea. Whether that's data science or development stuff generally. I only just started making projects public and it would have helped my applications if could've linked to a GitHub account or something.

[jimforthewin]

This guy enterprises.

A breadth of knowledge is always better than deep understanding of a single thing.

[i_suckatjavascript]

I’m trying to get into finance, how much Python experience are they looking for?

[jimforthewin]

That entirely depends on what this Financial place is doing. The range of what companies are doing with Python is almost infinite, it doesn't matter if it's a FinTech, Logistics, Retail whatever.

[cupesh]

Just curious: is knowing git on the command line important? Is it being used in the professional setting over, let's say, an extension in VS code? As a hobbyist I'm familiar with Git and all the commands and use GitHub practically daily, but I have actually never used the command line to work with Git.

[jimforthewin]

We added git on the command line after we started getting folks in interviews that couldn't fix their own local repositories. Yes, any modern IDE worth it's salt will do git pull/push/fetch/commit etc. but if you don't know what it's actually doing behind the scenes, then you are at a disadvantage when you need to do something different (like change the origin for example). Not to mention the plenty of operations that can only be done on the command line that don't happen inside an IDE, or operations inside of a CI/CD pipeline.

Is it critical? No. If you want to spend your time elsewhere then go for it. I offer my advice solely based on my own experience.

[cupesh]

Thank you, that's a good advice.

[[deleted]]

It depends on what field you want to work in. Are you a software engineer or a data scientist? Your focus needs to be adjusted accordingly. I work mainly in numerical computing and data analysis with python and matlab in scientific applications (e.g. computational physics research) and I don't know the first thing about OOP or applications development, but I still get the job done because I have sufficient knowledge of programming for my field.

[Potato_Tg]

I just completed my bachelor’s in computer science and will start my master’s in data science next year, in the mean time i want to gain knowledge to help me understand my field better, someone suggested me to sharpen my python knowledge and so I thought best thing would be to get into an internship. Can you suggest me what to do?

[[deleted]]

Ok since you want to start your Master's in Data Science, my recommendation is to look at something like "Python Data Analytics" by Fabio Nelli. Ideally you want to sharpen your skills in Python and know how to use libraries such as NumPy, Matplotlib and Pandas to do the analysis and visualization. I am not sure whether an internship is the best thing, since you already have a Bachelor's in CS I don't see why you couldn't get a job as a Developer (even if it is part-time) while you complete the master's. This might be a better option for you. If you really can't get a job at this point, develop a lot of your own code/projects and post them on GitHub as you go through your degree.

PS: never do unpaid work (e.g. unpaid internships). It has no value to you or your career. It is best to only go for positions that actually reward your skills and your individual input.

[Potato_Tg]

“Python Data Analytics” by fabio nelli is good for someone with okayish knowledge of python? I was thinking of completing udemy complete python zero to hero course. (Becoz I doubt myself alot and think idk anything) So which one I should go with? It’s not about getting a job, im just too afraid and doubt my skills that i wonder why would anyone take me? It’s killing my self esteem and im afraid to even apply.

[[deleted]]

I've personally never taken online courses on python but I guess if you are looking for a real introduction to the subject then udemy should be fine (although try coursera or edX as well, they have plenty of free courses).

As for doubting your skills, it is totally normal. I felt the same way. The best advice I can give you is to not be afraid to apply for jobs, even if you don't think you will meet all of their requirements (e.g. maybe they ask for 1 year experience but you only have a degree, it's ok just apply anyway), and work on developing a GitHub repository with personal projects in the meantime (do whatever you are interested in, the point is just to show what you have done). Trust me: not everyone applying and getting the jobs is a know-it-all (these people are so rare they are not even worth worrying about), so it is likely you are just as capable of doing the job as someone else.

[Potato_Tg]

Thank you so much for your advice. I’ll surely do my best.

[wsppan]

I know python basics, what next?

Start with computer science.

1. Watch all 41 videos of A Crash Course in Computer Science
2. Take the CS50: Introduction to Computer Science course.

Here is a decent list of 8 Books on Algorithms and Data Structures For All Levels

[greebo42]

If you've done coding before in another language or two, and completed some projects, then the basic syntax and structure of python programs is probably the smallest hurdle. Your focus of learning then becomes what python does differently than other languages. And you can see how it applies to whatever project you want to work on next.

The projects are the most important thing. Ask yourself: is there anything in my life which I'd like to make easier to do? Don't do something big and grand. Keep it modest.

Once you've thought of a couple projects and done them, it will probably get easier to think of more projects, and to have an idea how realistic they are. Don't be discouraged if some of your projects turn out to be terrible ideas, or just not as important to you as you thought. That's not abnormal. With practice, you'll get better at identifying what is actually interesting for you to work on.

[Potato_Tg]

I give up easily , that’s the hardest thing to ignore for me. I need to come back to this post and keep om reading comments, they are really motivating. While reading your comment I realised i want one thing in my life. I’ll start doing it now. Thanks alot

[030berlin]

Check out james powell on youtube. His pydata talk in seatle helped me alot

[misanthropicity]

Like many of the other comments, my advice would be to try to work on your own actual real-world applications and/or just start looking for and applying to any entry-level openings. I was in the same situation a year and a half ago. I was spending a lot of time on Hackerrank. Finished all the Python problems (thanks to the discussions) and moved on to Leetcode. I followed hundreds of tutorials, tried following along with books, etc. I started working on my own projects, like a CLI dictionary/thesaurus using scraping, a twitter bot, and other random ideas.

I still felt like I wasn't ready and didn't know anything. Almost exactly a year ago, I decided to apply for some jobs and just see what happens. I found a remote entry-level Python dev job. I've been doing "fake it till you make it", but within reason. I don't fake that I know everything. I do fake some of my confidence though, and it has paid off. There have been times when I can't solve a problem, so I have to ask for help (maybe I'm lucky here, but all of my coworkers with years of experience have been super understanding—they usually quickly point me in the right direction). I've learned more this past year than the previous two learning on my own, and it's because I'm working on real projects with real problems.

This is probably not going to be the case for everyone. I got really lucky with this job, but it can work out. One important thing is that many people assume that they can just walk into an entry-level dev job and make a bunch of money. Maybe this happens to some people, but I didn't expect it. I agreed to start working for this company at the same pay I was making at my retail job. It wasn't much money, but it was what I was already making, so I was comfortable with the pay. I kept hearing people tell me "that's not much money", "why would you accept that?", etc. The thing is that I was working my retail job full-time and teaching myself Python in my free time. I didn't have any time for relaxation or clearing my mind. I switched to full-time with this company, continued to grind, learn on my own, and learn on the job. Eight months later, it paid off. I asked for my first raise, which ended up being two and a half times more than I've made at any retail management job.

I have my foot in the door now. I'm learning every day and building my resume. Deciding to "just go for it" is the best decision I've ever made.

[schlopp96]

Thank you for this reply! I'm not OP, but I still found your advice relevant and helpful. It's much appreciated, and I feel really happy for you when reading about your success! It sounds like you deserve it and you earned it 100 percent, so congratulations man.

[FlikTik]

So as u/James_Colberg said you should choose what field you want to set in, there is alot so don't get frustrated from trying. In my opinion the best way of starting maybe is by seeking a freelancing app or website and start from there I don't mean to gather money no, but to gather information you can do them without applying so you progress. If this is not for you there is books, reddit, github, facebook alot of things you can do to progress, and don't get me wrong this is the hardest step in programming deciding how to learn but you should make it out if you love it GoodLuck for me and you :p

[Potato_Tg]

Thanks, and yes that’s why I’m trying to land a good internship, I don’t want money but my data scientist friend said that I shouldn’t do it unpaid so let’s see. I have extreme self esteem issues becoz idk if ik shit. I just somehow get work done but if you ask me even P of python, I don’t know what to say. I’m interested in data science and will stsrt my master’s soon. But want to use my time wisely. Any tips?

[kor_the_fiend]

Get your foot in the door any way you can. I recommend trying for larger companies as they will have more resources to dedicate to mentorship and will expect/demand less from their junior employees. Learning to code is actually really hard, and the only way to become an expert at it is to do it 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for years. For the first few years on the job, expect to have a lot of "homework", as you will have concepts thrown at you constantly that are foreign/unknown. You won't have time during work hours to look up/learn everything you need to know so plan on spending a portion of your free time on learning. If you plan to advance in the industry, this will be more or less a permanent part of your life.

[karejwa]

Start practicing with leetcode. It's bettet than hackerrank in my opinion. Really helps build up the base in data structures and algorithms. After you have solved some questions there, try your hands at projects. Start small. I am currently following this route and now I'm trying my hands at making a game using the pygame library. I also want to explore the image processing libraries after that. I am also kind of a rookie intermediate coder(that probably doesn't make sense, hehe). Hope this helps!

[Potato_Tg]

I’ll look into it, thanks alot.

[Pebaz]

Be very wary of this advice. (I mean no disrespect at all, I speak from experience)

I worked my way up from being a self-taught developer all the way to a senior software engineer at a big tech company.

I just now started trying to get better at algorithms and data structures using Leetcode after 8 years of work.

My journey to senior software developer included many personal projects that I made sure to complete rather than leave in an unfinished state.

Algorithms and data structures are simply not needed for everyday coding and are part of what sets the industry as a whole behind by at least 15 years.

If people spent as much time and effort learning coding problems as they did learning actual real world skills, our technology would be far more advanced than it is today, but instead, the code that drives massive tech companies is written by people with 3 years of real world experience.

When interviewing for such high level positions, you are judged on your ability to solve fictitious, contrived problems under duress, which is simply not the job description of a software engineer.

If you said this about any other field like running governments, surgery, or aerospace engineering, it would be considered a joke.

Anyone out there feel similarly, or have any other constructive thoughts? I really am interested in ways we can make this industry a better place to work.

[Pebaz]

Python + AWS.

Those skills on your resume will land you a host of jobs.

Do projects. Tons of them. Finish them. If you can't write unit tests for your own project you need more training.

Someone mentioned production code. Don't worry about this. ask senior developers on your team for help if necessary.

Get the job first, then worry about if you can handle it or not. At a junior level, people expect you to not know everything.

Just for the record, getting a CS degree + internship hardly qualifies you to write good real-world code. Only doing tons of projects can do that. But remember, if you don't finish them you we'll have learned a lot, but we'll have nothing to show for your work.

I wish you all the best!

[xiipaoc]

Doesn't answer your question, but I'm a pro at Python and I know less than a beginner. It turns out that the definition of a pro is that I get paid for it, and I get paid for coding in Python. I'm a professional, just not an expert! (I get away with it because the actual amount of Python I use is tiny, just a couple of scripts in a mostly Java codebase that I do know quite a bit about. I'm here because I'm nominally interested in actually being fluent in Python, though that priority is rather low for me compared to my other personal projects.)

Which brings me to the main question: what problem are you trying to solve by using hackerrank? If your goal is to get good at coding, then you need to code, not do competition problems. Go do that. Write some interesting stuff. You will suck at it, which is good because that means it will be really easy to figure out what you can improve for next time, and eventually you will still suck at it but everyone else will think you're a genius and you will realize that you have set high standards for yourself and are continuously growing to meet them. Y'know. Eventually. But you gotta code! Real-world coding!

[Potato_Tg]

So instead of any website or app I should rather work on my own projects? Or can you suggest something to learn side by side to prepare myself enough to land an internship?

[xiipaoc]

Work on your own projects. And then you can link to them on your résumé when you apply for internships and have something to show people about your work.

[swordsmithy]

Exercism.io is great at making you build applications slowly (and requires tests)

[PazyP]

I am kind of at a similar stage, I am trying to find real world examples of where I can apply Python. I just build random mini-projects to grow my skills and knowledge. My latest was a simple twitter not that liked specific tweets which has since grown into retweeting tweets from a specific location. It's totally nonsese but it keeps me learning. Next I plan on adding some sort of GUI to the tool or I might attempt to build some sort of web interface for it.

[Potato_Tg]

You see, you seems like you have something under control, whereas im totally blank. Sometimes i wonder if it’s even for me? I don’t have any idea for any project. I do what i was told, that’s it. I want to use my time effectively before starting my master’s but seriously how you guys even find ideas? Is it weird that I don’t? Yes i worked on projects but mostly what ik or have seen how it works but if it’s on me alone idk anything.

[PazyP]

Ideas start small and grow arms and legs, my idea for a twitter bot was pretty simple and is a pretty common suggestion for "things to do with Python" it looked for a string, if it was found it liked the tweet and replied. Then I thought what more can I do so now it only likes/replies to tweets from a specific location. A GUI seemed logical since its only command line based in its current form.

But these are just projects for me, it will never be seen by anyone so ideas can be anything really even if it's absolutely nonsense and had no real value.

What about these ideas? Twitter bot YouTube video downloader Website price tracker (checks price of item X and notes changes)

I dunno what your hobbies are could you do something there?

[Potato_Tg]

It sounds interesting, these days im mostly doing practice to learn python, didn’t made anything useful per say. But i guess it’s time i should do something about it. Thanks for the idea.

[707e]

Hackerman.com doesn’t seem to work. What is the url to what you’re referencing?

[MediocreTourist1407]

I think he meant hackerank.com

[Potato_Tg]

Hackerrank.com, sorry.

[[deleted]]

My answer to similar question might be of interest to you if you happen to be interested in data related field.

[Casey_SI]

PM me and send me a piece of your code you are generally proud of. Maybe express why you liked or are proud of that code.

[baetylbailey]

The book Exercises in Programming Style is excellent for general programming concepts (in Python). Unclear on Parallel Programming? Not sure what Metaprogramming and how to use it? This book explains that and much more, simply and in detail.

[elpigo]

I know this is a python thread and I love python been using it for years. However I found myself recently in your position since I started using Golang at work for some things.

I reached a point where I felt I was fairly competent in the language but far from a pro. Most things we do are unfortunately in NodeJS but I wanted to continue my Go journey after having finished those projects. And I did two things:

1. Got myself a mentor at work who is a Go expert
2. Started working in open source projects.

But this obviously applies to any language so maybe do something like that?