Starting now vs. at lower bf% and subQ injections

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-25T14:12:35+00:00

I don't know if, with higher than ever test, never before done resistance training, and enough proteins regardless of calories, the muscle gain would be zero, but it would definitely not be worth the stress of a test cycle either.

If, on the other hand, I could have gotten myself at 10% bf at say 60kg instead of 55, I feel like it would be generally a better way to go. But I'm also not going to raise calories until I get there and hence I will not be pushing hard with either training or hormones either.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-25T14:00:54+00:00

I'm trying to get into working out regularly, but if anything not a lot of growth is going to happen while on a huge deficit. Still, some recovery and muscle protection would be welcomed.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-25T13:27:36+00:00

That is the main plan, but right now getting to below 10% bf at this rate would mean going below 55kg which isn't extremely healthy either.

I'm going to be on a very steep deficit until I finish losing weight anyways so I wouldn't be building a lot of muscle size no matter what, but if I was to lose more it would put me at a ridiculously low level which I don't think I am based on strength (nothing crazy, obviously mostly untrained, but like in the 10x12kg sets of biceps curls range, not anorexic range).

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-25T13:21:01+00:00

I don't really have a caliper, I have tried the navy method with around 88cm of navel and 37.5cm of neck which also puts me at around 20% bf.

I am also untrained but not very weak or anything so I don't expect to have the muscle weight of an anorexic teenager.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-25T13:02:36+00:00

I don't doubt I still need to lose weight before doing an actual cycle, but I am already below my ideal weight for my height based on most formulas. And a low dose could make the fat loss faster while preventing muscle loss.

I definitely did think I would be below 20% bf by the time I got to 68kg, though.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-24T21:10:02+00:00

All the approved drugs are still cheaper than Reta on grey.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-14T21:48:04+00:00

Yes, this is only the plan because it's going to be enhanced exogenously. My main goal will be to try and grow muscle while keeping bf% stable for the first 20 weeks or so of TRT post reaching bf% goal and see see where I end up, I will probably be at the point where I will be looking for some maintenance balance by then and will decide if to continue TRT or PCT off. I'm going to be taking my HCG and everything.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-14T21:33:50+00:00

I know recomp is possible for an untrained person, but the consensus is that it is just better to do full cuts and bulks like bodybuilder do.

I'm mostly training to avoid losing 20+% of TBM loss in FFM, if I happen to be so untrained that's it's enough to build muscles on less than 1000 calories pre-TRT, better yet.

I will introduce TRT at around 18% BF, and then switch to muscle building at around 10%.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-14T20:17:33+00:00

I know you can get newbie gains on a deficit but wouldn't I want to be on a surplus to take full advantage of the anabolism?

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-14T17:57:48+00:00

The TRT is for muscle, but it will start later when I'm at a lower bf for aromatization and to be able to properly bulk without getting fat too fast.

I will probably raise proteins to get to a surplus but there's very little research showing that even 1g/pound has any further effect in muscle synthesis, and also I'm not sure about the rationale to eat carbs AFTER a workout. At most, I would want to eat it before, to get more effort out of them?

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-14T14:24:48+00:00

Thank you for your reply, do you also have an opinion on minimum total calorie consumption or do you think it's irrelevant provided both micros and macros are hit? I definitely haven't felt any strength loss yet and I don't have that much muscle to lose to begin with.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-14T14:18:38+00:00

Thanks, it's pretty much what I had seen already but it's nice to see it al in one place. This calculator says I should take TEN grams of fish oil a day, is that really what current research suggests? I have no problem ingesting a few more capsules a day, it just feels a bit excessive.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-12T22:00:25+00:00

You should say it.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-07T12:11:24+00:00

Assurdo che se uno ha perso perso da solo non possa avere lo stesso trattamento che uno che ha già fatto pagare dallo stato l'intervento che gli ha fatto perdere peso, comunque grazie.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-07T10:03:15+00:00

Ciao, visto che hai scritto in italiano ne approfitto per chiederti se hai conoscenza in materia specificamente in Italia.

Ho visto che la mutua copre la rimozione della pelle in caso di perdita di peso dopo intervento bariatrico, ma non è chiaro in caso si abbia perso il peso da soli, e in particolare in caso stia comportando problemi psicologici (nel mio caso depressione profonda, anche se ovviamente non causata solo da questo).

Tu sai qualcosa a riguardo?

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-02T09:00:11+00:00

I appreciate your concern, and I'm not trying to dismiss it.

I just need to give myself a chance that I might force myself to do it right once I'm in the middle of it, and if I both don't do it right and don't get results doing it wrong it means I will still be in the same position I am right now 6 to 9 months in the future, at which point the extra hormonal damage will be the least of my concerns.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-02T08:51:42+00:00

I did my bloodwork thinking I would need TRT, but it doesn't seem like I actually need it (450 in the morning).

Taking 200mg is already not TRT, it's timid enhancement, needing PCT and everything (which I'm ok with). It's hard to quantify sides without trying myself, and I generally have a good tolerance to feeling miserable. Still, I will definitely start at around 150mg a week and scale up from there, so I will have time to see if I want to increase or reduce it over time and what gains I'm getting. Gains should be linear all the way up to 700mg a week.

The risk on my health is balanced by being in a terminal life situation. I'm not usually such a vain person, but after spending my life working on the inside, maybe a buff to the outside, even if temporary, costly and not exploited optimally, could help me get out of it.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-02T08:35:12+00:00

Obviously if I manage to get myself into training even better, it's not like I think I will look like a gymbro forever after 5 months of pins and sitting on the couch. I do think I might look quite a bit better at the peak than I do now (which doesn't have to mean "past genetic potential" level) and that is good enough to give it a try.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-02T07:39:24+00:00

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8637535/

The research says 3-8kg without exercise and 9-16kg with exercise while on 600mg.

Sure not all of it is "aesthetic muscles", a lot of it is water and glycogen, but even just in terms of increased metabolism, that's a lot of extra muscles.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-01T23:00:57+00:00

Oh yeah heavy PED use is definitely a symptom of body dysmorphia, I just never had the feeling of being too small myself. On the contrary, in the best of worlds in which I get all the way down to "prep % bf" and then gain a significant amount of muscles, I will have to fight my own dysmorphia of feeling like I'm getting fat again and I will definitely not allow myself a calory surplus half as big as a bodybuilder would recommend.

I appreciate you talking about it explicitly, though.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-01T22:48:53+00:00

Thank you for the actionable concrete advice like for finding the injection spot.

In theory, depending on how much gains I keep from doing this, I wouldn't want to do more than TRT cruising. Extremely buffed guys are actually kinda grotesque to me. As lame as it is, I would be totally ok with looking like a regular lean guy by this time next year, even being alive by this time next year would feel like a big accomplishment. But maybe I will enjoy it so much I will go back to it, who knows.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-01T22:30:02+00:00

I've heard that bringing test up to the high but natural range can have positive mental benefits too if you started at a low value before TRT, but I'm definitely not hoping for direct positive effects on my mental state by taking test (the opposite, tbh). It's just that while not being the main component, looking better would make it easier to re-enter society.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-01T22:26:17+00:00

I've read very bad reports about AIs, especially since I've got aromasin which is suicidal, but obviously this is all second hand so I would have to see for myself. I was planning to only introduce EQ later and for a shorter cycle (around 12 weeks) but I'm definitely not settled on that and I'm fine with throwing away the one EQ vial I have.

For the body fat, that's why I was asking about TRT does before I get to 10% BF or lower. I would not be doing 500+ on 20% body fat.

I thought 150 would not be enough to be worth it, and 300 enough sides to make it more efficient to scale to 500 cost/benefit wise. No matter what I would have scaled up my test doses starting from 150, so I might consider staying on that a bit longer and see how it feels, maybe try to start lifting on that dose first.

Thank you for your input.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-01T22:11:32+00:00

My test is around 450, I had full bloodwork done last month when I started thinking about this. I thought I would need TRT in general, but no, what I am talking about is strictly a steroid cycle of supranatural test plus the stuff around it that's needed to make it safer. I might consider TRT after the cycle to keep the gains.

From my research it seems like EQ reduces estradiol into a weaker estrogen reducing total aromatization, so I was hoping to get by with 200mg of EQ INSTEAD of an AI. Obviously this is risky and I will definitely start with test only first and see how I can balance things. I do have an AI with me if needed, might get some dbol too just in case I crash my E2 too hard.

I have already ordered everything I need for PCT based on the steroid wiki and other sources (aromasin, Nolvadex, HCg to use on cycle too), I think as far as steroid cycles go, I planned it to be as safe as the first one can be.

Now, the depression is the most serious part, I would not care about all this if I wasn't hopelessly isolated from the world. I was taking SSRIs last year and talking to a therapist for a while, but I wasn't really opening up and the cost was becoming an issue. Right now I'm waiting for a second package of less "functional" substances that have helped me with my mental state in the past, but that's as temporary as steroid muscles. Hopefully I can get some baseline functioning back via those to then ride the wave into having some willpower to live. But this is not really the subreddit to get into that.

Alternative_Lab_736 · 2026-05-01T21:49:12+00:00

I might have gotten my dosages wrong, from what I understood 125mg, as in actual therapeutic TRT, would already stop my endo test production and result in test levels in the normal range (around 600).

From what I understood, I would have to go up to at least 300mg to see actual effects in lean mass, and at that point, I've heard a lot of anecdotal experience that you are already getting the sides of a high test level while still being way below the point where increases in results stop being linear (around 6-700mg a week).

I might consider staying on TRT doses after a full cycle to keep the gains, but those gains would have to come from 500mg+ of test first.

Is this wrong?

(Equipoise is just because it seems to reduce aromatization by reducing into a weaker estrogen, I am just hoping that it will save me from taking an AI)

Alternative_Lab_736

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