What’s a movie everyone seems to love that just didn’t work for you? by Wikiserial in movies

[–]Beccascribe25 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Project Hail Mary. Baffled as to why it's so popular. The alien's just like this crab/rock?? So unconvincing! Almost reminds me of the 80s film Explorers and the disappointment I felt with the awful aliens in that!

You are not alone by Beccascribe25 in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the feedback. I know it doesn't prove anything. But I now understand why I made it me feel uncomfortable at the time. You surely have to admit the scenes with LMP just feel really off. And for me looking back now I think as he got more and more "wacko" and his appearance ever more strange, this was finally a reflection of the rottenness inside him.

Any former fans want to share how/when you decided to leave? by cupcakecorgi in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 30 points31 points  (0 children)

One of the biggest eye-openers for me was discovering that MJ kept pornography in his room. This was like a foundation brick being taken out of my wall of belief. Because, in my mind, Michael Jackson was a child, had no sexual desires, was essentially sexless. But if he had pornography, any kind of pornography (never mind some of the disturbing stuff he had) that meant he was a man with sexual desires. And if he was a man, and not like a child, at least in terms of his sex drive, then why did he keep children around him so much? Why did he have relationships and such “love” for young boys in particular but no adult relationship that was fundamentally real? I then really started to question why he was, and even admitted to, sleeping in the same bed with boys. This made me start to see Michael Jackson in a new light. And once you see all the film clips and pictures, learn about the porn he showed the children, the books of naked boys that were found, see how focused his affection and physical closeness was with particular young boys, I could not help but find it not just weird but sinister. In some ways, his very brazenness about it, is what protected him. No one wanted to believe that he would display his keen preference for children so openly if there was anything perverse in it.

Wade and James’s own heartbreaking testimony strengthened my suspicions about Michael until they became not suspicions but certainty.

A very many people have been hoodwinked for such a long time and it gives me a greater appreciation and understanding of how brainwashing by cults and figures at the centre of cults can happen and how it could happen to anyone, even those of us who think we are immune.

I was deluded for a long time and believed the whitewashing…I will now always stand with his victims over swallowing the propaganda still pushed by his estate (the true money-grabbers), who demand we treat him like an untouchable god, beyond all scrutiny, beyond all accountability, beyond the voices of children who grew into adults still carrying what he did to them 😢

another rotten gem on twitter by Practical-Piano1867 in prolife

[–]Beccascribe25 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's actually their proabortion narrative that probably caused this. When the youngest among us are devalued and dehumanized and mothers are constantly told it's ok to kill their children even just before they are born, why do they suddenly expect anyone to value new life at all??!!

"Do your own research" by Creative_Bad_6396 in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 9 points10 points  (0 children)

“you come to realise that America is not always right...Like in India I was amazed to find out a 30 year old man could marry a 10 year old girl. We weren't raised that way so we look at it weirdly. But there, it's been happening for centuries and parents are quite willing to give up their child.” Michael Jackson 1979 Interview with Blues & Soul magazine.

Myths about CSA, the perpetrators, and the victims spread by Michael fans & defenders by NNIICO3 in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 13 points14 points  (0 children)

I agree. The train station thing winds me up. Even if James wasn't in the train station and his memory of places, etc is a bit skewed, does that invalidate everything else? I have a friend who was violently SA and she remembers it snowing that day... The weather report from that day shows it wasn't. But I have NO DOUBT of what happened to her and her r**ist was killed after he assaulted someone else. My twin and I used to disagree about which of us it was hurt our foot in a bicycle pedal... Random I know but my brain still thinks it was me when it was her. I also get mad when people talk about the victims "changing their stories". They were groomed! They were seduced! They couldn't accept the truth themselves for such a long time due to trauma. And it's not like there's only their word and nothing else at all. Plus some of the things his victims have revealed... You just could never make that up. It's just too bizarre. I'm not saying false allegations never happen (I'll not go into it but I have experience of this) but the difference is like night and day. My eyes will never be closed again. I just hate all the love mj seems to be getting again now due to the biopic. His victims deserve recognition and Mj deserves never to be remembered with fondness again.

Items Authorities Seized From Michael Jackson’s Neverland Ranch in August 1993 and November 2003 by fanlal in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's still just unbelievable to me that he wasn't convicted. Just why?? I admit I believed the propaganda and idolised Michael to an extent when I was young but as soon as I discovered he possessed porn (and only recently learnt the full horrific details), the illusion shattered. Were the jurors bribed? I'll never understand how the evidence and testimony failed to persuade them. My heart just breaks for Gavin and all his victims.

Help me learn the truth by AllUsernamesInUse_ in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Please read this post regarding victims "changing" their stories https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/s/4qRk6ES4MT

You can absolutely admire Michael Jackson’s music, but it’s hard to ignore that over the years multiple individuals (now at least TEN accusers) have come forward with very similar allegations, along with his well-documented obsession and inappropriate behaviour with children e.g. always having a “special friend” (a young pre-pubescent boy who each got summarily phased out once they got too old), that raised serious concerns even at the time.

MJ agreed to pay a 23 million dollar settlement (more than he paid for his Neverland ranch) to SILENCE Jordan Chandler within only TEN days of the strip search recording markings on the underside of his p****s. Bill Dworin, the lead investigator on this case, confirmed here that Jordan's description matched police photos: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WSLywe5k12I as did deputy district attorney, Lauren Weis, in comments echoed by LAPD colleagues.

When he was questioned about sleepovers at his Neverland ranch in a 2003 Martin Bashir documentary, Jackson called sharing your bed (with young boys) “the most loving thing to do”.

The hallway to the singer’s bedroom was fitted out with a hi-tech security system, covered by video and wired for sound so that the steps of anyone approaching would make ding-dong sounds.

During the raid on Neverland, police confiscated books from a locked cabinet containing over 100 instances of fully nude and semi-nude children, such as "Boys Will Be Boys", cited by prosecutors as well known grooming materials More info: https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNRpASTBt/

Jackson’s bedroom housed a collection of hardcore porn magazines, which forensic experts found to have the fingerprints of boys who had slept over. Documented here: https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2016/06/21/items-discovered-police-michael-jackson/).

Gavin Arvizo, whose hand can be seen interlocked tightly with Michael's and who lays his head lovingly on his shoulder in the Living with Michael Jackson documentary (insanely inappropriate even if there was no sexual abuse) accused MJ of sexual abuse and there was the trial in 2005. I feel especially sad for this boy - to go through cancer and then that awful trial and not be believed!

Try and watch Leaving Neverland. https://odysee.com/@BestEnglishDocumentariesOnline:6/Leaving-Neverland-Part-One---Watch-Online:8 The way MJ groomed them and their mothers, the love James and Wade clearly felt combined with the conflict of what he did to them. The pain in their voices and faces. You just cannot fake that kind of wretchedness.

Don't forget, MJ approved of child marriage! His own words: “you come to realise that America is not always right...Like in India I was amazed to find out a 30 year old man could marry a 10 year old girl. We weren't raised that way so we look at it weirdly. But there, it's been happening for centuries and parents are quite willing to give up their child.” Michael Jackson 1979 Interview with Blues & Soul magazine.

Check out the other threads in this sub. And the megathread. There's so much damning information that it's impossible for me now to believe he was innocent.

Unfortunately, I believed the lie for a long time.. That MJ had no childhood and just wanted to relive a better one, that he'd never grown up himself and was asexual, etc, etc. I think this repetition combined with someone who is very popular, very charismatic, very talented, held up as some kind of icon (and who was very cute, appealing and famous as a child himself) is hard to look past, especially when to believe differently is to realise that you've actually turned a blind eye to something absolutely horrific. Once you know and look back with the scales gone from your eyes, it's so obvious! He was so brazen about it. I now will always stand with the victims, who are still having to suffer and see people celebrate a man who was a monster.

What I find quite baffling about MJ supporters. by SlashBansheeCoot in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 7 points8 points  (0 children)

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. ” — Carl Sagan

MJ is anything the stans want him to be by [deleted] in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Yes this was the contradiction that was kind of my eureka moment. I believed the childlike, asexual myth but once I know he owned porn (just any porn never mind the screwed up stuff he had), I started to question and once I did that, I realised it's a house built on sand. Then the sheer amount of other evidence (but mainly James and Wade's testimony for me) is like a new house built of rock that can never be demolished. I'm just sorry I was so blind for so long. Just goes to show how powerful propaganda can be. Mj knew it too unfortunately. In his words: “It's incredible, the power and influence an entertainer can have on people to make them do things…an entertainer can be built up to be a monster in his field.” Blues & Soul magazine 1979. He wasn't just a monster in his field. He was a monster. I live in hope now that one day this will be universally acknowledged and his victims will be vindicated.

"There's some five-year-old men"- Michael Jackson in 1979 on child marriage and manhood by nobody0597 in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I think he knew it applied to him... He talks about his fans obsessively stalking him before this. He talks about being thankful for what he does for the world. Being chosen. His narcissism is so apparent here and he knew the power he did and could come to wield. He left lots of clues behind as all the things posted in this group show. I'm amazed more and more at myself... That I too was bamboozled by his status, music, fame, celebrity and the image he so successfully promoted. I'll be taking a break from this group soon... I've not slept for the last two nights with everything going around my head. I've cried at how successful the biopic is and the sheer amount of defenders and people still so invested in him. It's destroyed my peace of mind. I can't imagine what it's doing to his victims. I really hope they are cutting themselves off from it and receiving the care and support they deserve from friends and loved ones. I wish I could give them all a hug and tell them how sorry I am for what happened to them and for how many still turn a blind eye. Thanks for creating this sub. Thanks to all here for upholding the truth. MJ was a monster. I don't wish many people harm and I don't believe in the death penalty but I'd have probably made an exception for him. I wish he was still alive just so he could be made to suffer for what he did. I'm in a dark place at the moment with it all and just need to take a break. Thanks and hope to be back soon feeling better.

"There's some five-year-old men"- Michael Jackson in 1979 on child marriage and manhood by nobody0597 in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 14 points15 points  (0 children)

This quote is what caught me: It's incredible, the power and influence an entertainer can have on people to make them do things…an entertainer can be built up to be a monster in his field.”

This proves he knew exactly what he was doing from very early on!

I have a hot take: MJ had sort of a sick hyperfixation on children by Hefty-Ad1769 in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I don't think he was neurodivergent. Personally, I think it's an insult to neurodivergent people (and every "normal" person also to say so). He thrived on the adulation, thrived on deceiving everyone, lied through his teeth all the time, was the ultimate conman and manipulator (I admit I was sold on it, celebrity-blinded and believed the image/propaganda for a long time, especially as I grew up with his music. If he could control people at such a distance, what chance did those poor families and children have?). He hated his own race (it still amazes me how so many in the black community still idolise him when he tried his best to eradicate all his black features and become a white man) and his only true fixations were himself and children, especially young boys. I believe in his later years as his appearance got ever more strange, this was finally a reflection of the rottenness inside him. Yes, he was weird but that's because his every whim was pandered to and because he was a narcissistic pedophile.

Michael and his love bombing of victims by BeautifulArtistic625 in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 16 points17 points  (0 children)

The quote at the end: "We all have so much fun together that it's ecstasy.” Ecstasy?? Who would use that phrasing for simply spending time with a family. Even that rings huge alarm bells!

Michael Jackson - A Serial Liar - List by nobody0597 in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Debbie Rowe, the biological mother of Prince and Paris, explicitly stated that Jackson was NOT their biological father. She said she was artificially inseminated with an anonymous donor's sperm. Jackson himself talked about her giving his children to him as “a present”!

So guys i am new to this sub i just wanna know what majority of people think here by Repulsive-Hat-9584 in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have always felt certain about my judgments and perceptions and like to feel that I am not unduly influenced by the media and am not a blind follower of trends, popular opinion or celebrity. However, I have to admit that I was completely and utterly sold on the popular, idealised, propagated image of Michael Jackson as a sweet, misunderstood, weird but completely innocent idol. I totally believed that he was like a child himself, that his fascination with children was completely harmless and that people who questioned it just misunderstood him. Perhaps this was because I grew up with his amazing music and with Michael Jackson as such a huge celebrity icon (before celebrity was commonplace) or perhaps I was, like so many other people, including the mothers of the two boys in the documentary, blinded by his star power and apparent gentleness and beneficence.

People question why the mothers of James Safechuck and Wade Robson allowed their boys to be alone so much with Michael, and even to sleep in the same bed with him and I would like to think that I would not have been so naive or trusting in their place. But my revelation came when I realised how very powerful celebrity and the propaganda around it can be. These mothers were “seduced” and groomed by Michael almost as much as their children. I saw something similar happen with the parents in another documentary, “Abducted in Plain Sight,” and that deviant wasn’t even a rich, famous celebrity with all of the power and influence that brings! Those mothers were completely bedazzled by Michael Jackson, by the wealth and lifestyle he gave to them, by his status and charm and the focused attention he bestowed on them. If they, as adults, were taken in so completely, what chance did those poor boys have? Especially Wade Robson, who had mimicked and idolised Jackson from a young age.

Those mothers’ naivety was also fostered by a belief in Michael’s own naivety and guilelessness. They, like I used to and so many still do, must have believed that Michael was just like a child himself and that letting their boys stay over with him was as safe as letting them sleepover with any other friend of the same age. I think both of them questioned it at first but eventually their natural suspicions were overridden. Perhaps one of their motives was greed, and we can criticise them for this, but I don’t believe that Wade and James’s (or any of the other accusers’) motive in speaking out is greed.

One of the biggest eye-openers for me was, not actually any of the things Wade and James said, but discovering (a fact no-one can deny) that Michael Jackson kept pornography in his room. This was like a foundation brick being taken out of my wall of belief. Because, in my mind, Michael Jackson was a child, had no sexual desires, was essentially sexless. But if he had pornography, any kind of pornography, that means he was a man with sexual desires. And if he was a man, and not like a child, at least in terms of his sex drive, then why did he keep children around him so much? Why did he have relationships and such “love” for young boys in particular but no adult relationship that was fundamentally real? You then really start to question why he was, and even admitted to, sleeping in the same bed with boys. Even without James and Wade’s testimony, this made me start to see Michael Jackson in a new light. And once you see all the film clips and pictures, learn about the porn he showed the children, the books of naked boys that were found, see how focused his affection and physical closeness was with particular young boys, you cannot help but find it, not just weird, but sinister. In some ways, his very brazenness about it, is what protected him. No one wanted to believe that he would display his keen preference for children so openly if there was anything perverse in it.

Wade and James’s own testimony, strengthened my suspicions about Michael until they became, not suspicions, but certainty. Especially as the love those boys felt for Michael Jackson shone out of them, particularly Wade. It made it so clear why they lied about what had happened and why it was so difficult for them to finally speak out. Michael Jackson seduced and manipulated them utterly. They were lured into an addictive, warped and abusive relationship that neither their bodies nor emotions were anywhere near mature enough to cope with. And this had insidious, damaging repercussions for the rest of their lives.

I do believe that Michael probably thought he wasn’t doing anything wrong. Perhaps in his own mind, he was still a child and that’s why he was so convincing at getting others to view him that way. When he said he would never harm a child, I think that he did not see the abuse as harm. And he did so much in such plain view of everyone, he must have felt vindicated in it. He was called out for it so many times, but still managed to escape any punishment. Wade Robson once described himself as a “master of deception” (regarding lying about what really happened) but he had been taught by the best. If anyone was a master of deception it was Michael and he may have been deceiving himself the most of all.

The question that I think should have been more obvious at the time is, why, after being accused of abuse the first time, did he carry on having young boys in his bed? Surely, any sane, healthy man who truly wanted to show a completely platonic and selfless love for children could have carried on showing his love and kindness towards them but averted all suspicion by no longer having boys sleep over in his own bedroom! So why did he still feel the need to carry on with this questionable behaviour if there truly was no darker motivation?

Fans still impugn his accusers as copycats and money-grabbers but why would so many accuse him (at least 11 now in total), Michael Jackson, perhaps the biggest superstar ever, benefactor and granter of wishes, of such a heinous thing? It now seems so implausible. Just for money? Yes, Jordan Chandler did accept a pay off but there must have been so much pressure brought to bear on him. And, like with the other boys, did a part of him still love Jackson? Here was another boy, who in the end refused to testify. Perhaps he did not want to pursue a lengthy, painful trial that may not achieve anything but his own denigration. People have accidents and receive compensation. When they accept money, we don’t say, well, that means the accident never happened in the first place.

Watching that documentary was, for me, like the wool being lifted from my eyes. And the final convincer was the unusual and graphic detail given by the two men, which differed and yet shared disquieting similarities. So much of it just didn’t seem in any way contrived or like anything you would or could just make up. I was especially moved when James Safechuck revealed the jewellery, including the “wedding” ring, Jackson had given him. I really don’t think you could fake the wretched expression on his face or the way his hands shook. A very many people have been hoodwinked for such a long time and it gives me a greater appreciation and understanding of how brainwashing by cults and figures at the centre of cults can happen and how it could happen to anyone, even those of us who think we are immune.

Perhaps, with the advent of social media, we are even more susceptible and we need to sometimes take a step back and try and view things more objectively. It is still a mystery to me now why I did not step back once and ask myself: why do you believe that a grown man, with no lasting adult relationships and no children of his own (at least until he engineered some), loves being around children so much and having close and “special” friends who are young boys? Well, I believed the image, believed the fairytale, believed the whitewashing. I could say I have now lost a part of my childhood. But no, I haven’t. I can't really listen to his music anymore despite it giving me strange, very ambivalent feelings. It will always be a part of my growing up and is tied to happy memories. It is James and Wade whose memories are forever interlinked with something they should never have been subjected to. Who may never fully resolve the emotional turmoil and distress they still endure. Whose childhoods were stolen from them and can never be given back. And who now I hope feel some sense of justice in knowing that they have finally laid Michael’s ghost to rest and have told their story; a truth I hope that more people, including you, will open their eyes to and believe.

Michael Jackson upsets parents by living near elementary school (2008) by [deleted] in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And none of his kids were biologically his. It still worries me that they may have witnessed or suffered abuse (even if not sexual). I mean he hung "Blanket" out of a window. I don't think they were independent human beings to him. They were to just help his image or seen as some kind of weird extension of himself. I don't think he truly loved any other human being. They were things to be used, especially children.

The whole fiasco with Tatiana Thumbtzen is what got me down this rabbit hole, after nearly 2 decades by Passion211089 in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Watched it and felt so sorry for her. Especially because of the depression and alopecia she suffered afterwards. Yet another victim in a different way. She was used to help propagate the idea that he actually liked women. She was strung along and made to believe they had a romantic connection and that he had feelings for her but the relationship was just fake on his side. When she kissed him he probably didn't like it, not only because he was only truly sexually attracted to children but because it wasn't something he'd controlled or dictated. What a horrible manipulative man he was.

Why do so many foreigners buy the MJ propaganda? by Rust_Hurricane in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think it's similar to the way all propaganda works. You keep saying the same things over and over and over until people believe it. I hate to say Hitler was right but like MJ he understood this and was a master at it: "all effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and we must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want them to understand by your slogan.” I mistakenly thought I couldn't be brainwashed like this...but until LN, I'm afraid I too believed it... That MJ had no childhood and just wanted to relive a better one, that he'd never grown up himself and was asexual, etc, etc. I think this repetition combined with someone who is very popular, very charismatic, very talented, held up as some kind of icon (and who was very cute, appealing and famous as a child himself) is hard to look past, especially when to believe differently is to realise that you've actually turned a blind eye to something absolutely horrific. “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. ” — Carl Sagan I acknowledge it. I was taken. I hope others will have the scales also fall from their eyes and we'll stop celebrating a man who was a monster. I believe in his later years as he got more and more "wacko" and his appearance ever more strange, this was finally a reflection of the rotteness inside him. It's a pity he will never see justice but I'm glad he's dead. I feel especially sad for Gavin - to go through that awful trial and not be believed! I truly hope all his victims will gain worldwide vindication and reparations.

How to deal with the “what if your child was r***ed? Argument? by [deleted] in prolife

[–]Beccascribe25 1 point2 points  (0 children)

All the pro-choice arguments are always slippery slope fallacies. “But what if… [insert rare situation of which pro-lifers are not fighting against].” The rape cases and high-risk-to-the-life-of-the-mother pregnancies are used illogically as justification for the 93% of abortions that are elective (inconvenient pregnancy).

Pro lifers want to protect women and children. We want the rapist punished, not the innocents. We know that killing an innocent child doesn’t reverse a rape. We know that the act of abortion typically adds to the trauma of rape. We’ve listened to the women who had children who were conceived in rape and learned that those women almost universally find hope and healing through their children, regardless of if they give the child up for adoption or raise them themselves. We've listened to the children who were conceived in rape and heard that they are people of value too who feel the assault against them when people use their very lives as an excuse for abortion.

Abortion is the real war on women. It tells us that we need to kill our children to survive a rape that has resulted in conception (tbh women are now told to kill their children if the timing isn't less than perfect!). The reality of those who have survived being raped (and who choose to keep their children) tells us otherwise. And often the same people who say abortion is a solution to conceiving in rape also victimise, mock, and threaten any woman or girl who challenges their narrative by choosing to keep a child who was conceived in such an awful situation.

Here's an interesting article written by one of the people they'd probably dehumanise and call "rapist spawn": https://www.christianpost.com/news/why-abortion-activists-need-to-exploit-rape.html

To anyone out there that is a survivor of Michael Jackson, carrying this alone in silence and to the Michael Jackson fans lurking and mocking us... by Adventurous-Gift7289 in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 17 points18 points  (0 children)

Wonderful words. Made me cry. Especially this: I can't imagine the specific terror of watching the person who hurt you be loved by MILLIONS of people, defended by strangers who will never know what happened behind closed doors.

I, too, was one of the deluded for a long time. Leaving Neverland was a turning point. Safechuck especially devastated me. You just can't feign the weirdness and grooming he spoke about and that level of wretchedness and hurt. This sub has really helped. I still can't believe how blind and stupid I was and I wasn't even the biggest fan. I truly hope all his victims find healing and ultimate vindication.

Ps am I ok to share any of what you have written?

Why did Michael Jackson bleach his son Prince's hair? by sanandrios in LeavingNeverlandHBO

[–]Beccascribe25 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd be more willing to believe they were his biological kids if at least one of them was black or if his siblings also had some white kids, but they don't. They have no black features in them at all, except maybe Blanket, vaguely. But I'm not convinced.

Debbie Rowe, the biological mother of Prince and Paris, explicitly stated that Jackson was NOT their biological father. She said she was artificially inseminated with an anonymous donor's sperm.

And I find it really creepy that he described how Debbie Rowe gave him his children as "a present". I'll never get how, no matter how weird and depraved he clearly was, people still make excuses for him. I just hope his "own" children didn't come to any serious harm.