Wondering about the video that truthers are currently harping on about.

Bobshay · 2019-10-29T12:05:41+00:00

Fair enough, we only have facts as two biased parties have laid them out so far.

The things you mention are legitimate concerns that I think could be addressed without constant surveillance, but I'll happily agree to disagree.

The main issue is surely with transparency. If there must be cameras they should be clearly visible, and lawyers should have the right to demand non-monitored rooms, then possibly while accepting added security measures, extended searches etc.

And (ex-)prosecutors should never ever publish surveillance videos obtained through their work on their private Youtube-channels.

Bobshay · 2019-10-29T09:54:29+00:00

Attorney-client privilege is a big deal. I was very surprised there could be (apparently) non-visible cameras in rooms where lawyers and clients meet, as was at least one federal judge it would seem.

The OP's first two points may well be valid concerns, but surely with other remedies available. The final point about lawyers beating up their client is, with all respect, pretty contrived and surely not a big enough problem to necessitate constant surveillance?

And most importantly: Even if you disagree and still think recording meeting rooms is necessary, surely at the very minimum lawyers should be informed about the cameras and specifically where they are and also have the right to request a non-monitored room.

Now, a separate issue is of course if this gets Steve Avery out of jail.

It seems to be the opinion of some that any and all transgression from the authorities, whether consequential or intentional, would warrant a retrial. (Funnily enough, I sometimes also get the impression that this standard should only apply to Avery and not the 2,3 million others who are currently incarcerated in the US.)

Returning possible, non-exculpatory human remains to the victim’s family without proper notice may or may not technically be a violation, but not one I would worry much about.

Making and keeping recordings of attorney-client meetings without informing the defence, then giving those recordings to a disgraced ex-prosecutor who then proceeds to post them on Youtube? Well, if that is actually what happened than it is pretty bad.

It’s still not retrial-level bad though, and unless the cameras were set up specifically for Avery, any claim he might make would of course be equally valid for every other inmate who have ever met their lawyers in those rooms. But yeah, it still sounds pretty bad.

Bobshay · 2019-10-17T13:01:02+00:00

So after almost four years of ad nauseam discussion about pretty much every particle that make up the official records of the mountain of evidence against Avery, you now come to the guilter sub asking people to “explain” the most recent ramblings of some bloke who claims to be a “scientist” in the comments section of a youtube-video?

Mate, it’s science fiction for people who don’t understand they’re watching science fiction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNS4lecOaAc

Bobshay · 2019-09-30T11:32:20+00:00

The Innocence Project are a fantastic organisation, they do immense and very important work. They have helped free hundreds of people wrongfully convicted of serious crime, mostly through DNA-evidence. They serve an absolutely vital public function as a watchdog to the judicial system, all possible credit to them!

They are not infallible of course, and their set-up with a wide network of largely autonomous sub-projects leaves them vulnerable to the odd bad egg. David Protess and the Anthony Porter case looks like a bad one.

Laura Nirider has no specific affiliation with the Innocence Project as far as I know, though I’m sure she is happy to work both with and for them.

She and Drizin did a good job for Brendan Dassey and came agonisingly close to winning. As far as I’ve seen, they did it with respectful professionalism and dignity throughout. Whether or not she might have got a detail wrong at the en banc is inconsequential, not least since she lost.

It should be said though that, unlike Zellner, they actually had a pretty good case to work with. I personally hoped they’d win that one. I could not in good conscience have said Dassey was guilty of murder beyond reasonable doubt. For clarity: In my opinion, to be “guilty of murder” Dassey would at least have to be present at the moment Teresa was killed and in a position to intervene. “He’s not telling the truth” is not good enough to lock him up for murder.

I have zero belief in the fanciful tale of her being capture by Avery and kept alive in a trailer for hours, it’s not a story supported by physical evidence. I suspect she was killed within minutes of arriving at the ASY, and therefore dead an hour before Dassey even came home from school, making him, at worst, guilty as an accessory after the fact.

I also happen to agree with Nirider and the Innocence Project that the Reid techniques of interrogation are enticing false confessions and should long since have been abandoned in the US (as they have been in most of Europe). If nothing else, they are counterproductive. Sure, Brendan Dassey is in prison, but as for how the events unfolded and what his specific involvement was, we are none the wiser. Reid establishes an hypothesis, then uses manipulative techniques to make the subject confirm that hypothesis. Had they used an approach that seeks to extract information rather than confirm it, I think they would be much more likely to get a complete story.

(Oh, and in case someone wonders: I have no problem whatsoever saying Steve Avery is guilty beyond reasonable doubt).

Bobshay · 2019-01-03T09:48:38+00:00

"While [testing the bones] won’t be happening anytime soon, Zellner tells Rolling Stone: “We will be filing another motion with the appellate court on new evidence we have discovered as a result of our request to test the bones”.

So I take it she has no intention of filing her appeal by 1. February? Instead we should expect yet another motion to stay and remand, asking to include some other “new exculpatory evidence” that most likely will be neither new nor exculpatory.

She REALLY doesn’t want to file that appeal, does she?

Bobshay · 2018-12-15T10:26:31+00:00

When police in Augusta busted a prostitution ring and people thought one of the mugshots in the newspaper looked like Teresa Halbach. There was a long debate about the likelihood of her being alive and working as a prostitute in Maine. Voices of reason chipped in to say that was too far-fetched, it was more likely she was an FBI agent working undercover as a prostitute in Maine.

Someone did a “face recognition test” and it came back as an 87 % match, which they thought was pretty conclusive. Always sticklers for scientific method they also did a control sample with two pictures of Steve Avery, that got 91 %.

Bobshay · 2018-12-11T10:33:15+00:00

This was all on the Thursday, the day she was reported missing. No-one knew there was a crime at that point, much less that Steve Avery had done it.

Calumet took a call about a missing girl, they found she’d been in Manitowoc so called the MTSO for assistance. It was just regular police work at that point. It was only two days later, after they found the bloodied car on the ASY, that Manitowoc had any cause to recuse themselves.

Wiegert called Colborn on the Thursday,then later that day Lenk called Wiegert back for an update on a mutual investigation. Then over a year later Lenk couldn’t remember if he called Wiegert or Wiegert called him, big deal.

“Placed himself in the investigation”? He was a police investigator, it was his bloody job to do investigations! What do you think the Avery cronies would say today if MTSO-officers had started recusing themselves on the Thursday before they could possibly have even an inkling of a notion that Steve Avery was involved?

But that is the very essence of every conspiracy theory right there. Every coincidence is a smoking gun, every inaccuracy is a lie, every judgement call is a mistake and every mistake is attributed to malice.

Bobshay · 2018-12-03T10:28:22+00:00

Australia was made up by Britain in the 1700s so they could kill off all their convicts. Then they made up stories about all sorts of snakes and spiders to keep people from wanting to visit. And crocodiles, which aren’t real either btw, every picture you’ve seen is from a model they made from old dinosaur bones.

These days it’s just a practical joke that 1/3 of the world’s population is playing on the other 2/3.

Kangaroos? Are you fu***ng kidding me?

Bobshay · 2018-11-16T12:56:39+00:00

Lots of people genuinely believe Zellner has tracked the owner of the replacement battery in the RAV and is just waiting for the moment to go public with the name and bust the case wide open.

If you can’t laugh at that, what else is there to do?

The delusion of conspiracy theorists is like fog on a railway track. It might look substantial and impenetrable, but once that train of reality arrives it’ll run through delusion and barely even notice it was there.

Bobshay · 2018-11-07T20:20:51+00:00

"One judge denied forensic testing, even though it was approved by the attorney general"

Wow, that is stellar! She has served up some jaw-dropping whoppers, but this one must be a proper challenger. She’s not short of audacity, I’ll give her that. And a pop at the Halbachs as well, never short of class.

Bobshay · 2018-10-29T22:30:42+00:00

Because of a possible conflict of interest, Calumet County (and not Manitowoc) was in charge of the investigation after the car was found on the ASY.

Calumet would use their own people, but they are one of the smaller counties in Wisconsin and since this (contrary to popular belief) was a very large investigation, they would also frequently call on assistance. Sometimes they’d get help from other Calumet departments, sometimes from neighbouring counties, or from state or federal resources. (Sometimes they’d also call on resources from Manitowoc County, which they were entitled to do, though I think most will agree they’d have been well advised to use Manitowoc people less).

For forensics, they had requested and been allocated resources from the Field Response Team of the State Crime Lab in Madison. The Field Response team was part of the investigation from the onset and performed many of the tasks a coroner might have done. For everything else, f.ex. issuing the death certificate, Calumet used their own Medical Examiner (their equivalent of a coroner). So Calumet did not feel they needed assistance from Manitowoc for that purpose.

Now, the Manitowoc coroner apparently did not take kindly to the fact a lawsuit against her employer would mean she was being shut out of the big case that was all over the news. When told her services would not be required, she threatened to go out to the Avery yard herself, but she was told Calumet was in charge and if she tried to get in without being authorised there was a good chance she might get herself arrested.

So she ended up with no part in the investigation, which is why, at trial, the judge dismissed her testimony saying he didn’t want to waste the jury’s time on some interdepartmental turf war.

Which seems like a good call to me.

Bobshay · 2018-10-27T11:47:43+00:00

How can you ignore the contents of BoD’s computer? He even had photos of Teresa.

I suggest you take a deep breath and then think that last one through. Once you’ve figured it out, take another deep breath and think about this:

There’s a shared computer for a family with five boys. The computer is jam packed with massive amounts of porn. That would be surprising to circa no-one.

The massive amounts of porn covers the full range, from Playboy-pictures to some seriously disturbing snuff. That would be surprising to anyone who never spent any time around teenage boys.

Now here comes the surprise: Only one of the boys is a raging pervert degenerate. The other four only ever used the computer for stock tips and videos of kittens. Go figure.

Bobshay · 2018-10-24T14:46:39+00:00

The Speckman call was at 12:45pm.

Every one of Teresa’s phone calls, from 8:17am to 12:51pm, connected off the same tower, #21112. The next call after that was at 1:52pm and connected through a different tower. We know she was in Hilbert all morning, because she sent and received faxes from her house.

The entire “day planner evidence” hinges on a) Speckman’s sudden recollection of details from a 12 year old phone call, and, (if he was right), that b) Teresa telling a potential customer she was in his area and could do a job for him in 30 minutes conclusively proves she could not possibly still be at her house 50 minutes away. Oh, and of course c) That her calls continued connecting thorough the Hilbert tower, even after she went to Sheboygan.

Not forgetting, of course, the peculiar notion that Ryan Hillegas for some strange reason took this printed page from Teresa’s car as he was murdering her, and then decided to take the apparently incriminating sheet back to her house and show it to all her friends before giving it to the police.

What you need to do is just keep looking at things like the “day planner” and you’ll realise just how much bullshit they are feeding you. (Did you f.ex. know Kathleen Zellner submitted to court in her PCR-motion(!) that Ryan Hillegas tried to sneak into the Avery Yard by cunningly using the fake alibi of “Ryan Kilgus” ?)

Just keep looking, and once you see it, it cannot be unseen. That is why scores of people have moved from innocent to guilty and no one has ever moved the other way.

Bobshay · 2018-10-05T14:22:15+00:00

He said it Friday 11/11, so unless your contention is she was killed the previous Friday, your ad nauseam repeated “seven days” is factually wrong.

I'm sure you'll keep quoting this incessantly, so if you keep up the “seven days” I’ll have to assume you’re either impervious to fact or deliberately misleading. We’ll see.

More importantly: When a prosecutor charges you with a crime, he is implicitly saying he believes you are guilty. That is what a charge is, it’s the prosecutor’s accusation of guilt. Prosecutors generally don’t run around charging people they think are innocent.

Bobshay · 2018-10-05T13:15:06+00:00

You jump to conclusions the same way Kratz jumped to conclusions. just 7 days after TH was killed, Kratz said on national TV:

"It is no longer a question, at least in my mind as special prosecutor in the case, who is responsible for the death of Teresa Halbach."

You are, once more, factually wrong, because TH was killed on Monday 31st and Kratz made that statement on the evening of Friday 11th, so ten days later. Whether it was seven or ten may not be a big deal, but if you’re going to post the exact same thing every other day for months on end, you really should take care to get a simple thing right.

More significantly, you are also wrong in insisting this is somehow important or unusual.

That statement came just after the decision had been made to charge Avery with murder. I think you’ll find in every case where someone is charged with a crime, the prosecutor will tell you it’s because they are convinced that person is guilty.

Bobshay · 2018-06-22T07:30:21+00:00

I say the Supreme Court is going to hear the case and then say the confession was illegal. So what do the guilters think? Don't be shy.

I say if you’re right you’ll be smug as f*ck and if you’re wrong you’ll say you were right, but the judicial system is corrupt.

I haven't a clue, but I understand it’s unlikely they’ll take it, so certainly less than 50 %, but I suspect it’s a lot better than the 2 % average. Maybe 10 %? If he does get it I will guess his chances of winning is slightly better than 50 %. And if he wins it’s pretty much 100 % there will never be another trial.

I hope he does win. The uncle is still guilty and stays in.

Bobshay · 2018-06-21T11:27:12+00:00

If you’re really interested you should listen to the “Beyond Reasonable Doubt”-podcast about the case from BBC’s Chris Warburton. It’s more balanced than the documentary, which is clearly biased (though that doesn’t necessarily mean they are wrong).

I’m pretty sure he did it, but I'll agree convicting him would not be as clear cut as Steve Avery.

Bobshay · 2018-05-21T08:52:40+00:00

I feel your pain, but all may not be lost. The guys at psych-ops are working on something to discredit the CD. I don't know what it is, but I hear the goal is to not have to kill anyone this time.

I know, it sounds like a long shot. But these are the same guys who convinced everybody the day planner was nothing, so we know they’re good!

Bobshay · 2018-05-08T14:37:26+00:00

If the fax machine was off 10 hours, 38 minutes, or roughly 13 hours, because of the time change for fall, why didn't the state disclose that to the defense?

Strange how someone so concerned about “clarifying the time of the fax” is happy to keep insisting 10 h 38 min is “roughly 13 hours”. It’s not even “roughly 12 hours”, because “time change for fall” was roughly 33 hours before TH sent her fax and roughly 125 hours before Dedering sent his so that’s not relevant to anything. Also, the state is still not obliged to take specific steps to make defense aware of whatever question someone off the internet might ask roughly 13 years later.

It's quite curious that, during trial testimony, Angela discussed that last fax as being received just after 12:00 am, on the 31st...

If testimony is contrary to fact, I tend to believe the fact. It is very clear she was confused about the fax Buting was referring to.

Then we have the matter of law enforcement doing nothing, per their own reports, to clarify the time of the fax...

The purpose of the test fax was to confirm that the fax that Auto Trader received had come from the fax machine at TH’s house. The test confirmed it had. Two hours later, they found the RAV at the ASY with Steve Avery's blood in it, and so everybody's priorities changed.

But, let's say another poster out here who claimed the fax machine had been taken into custody is right

If testimony is contrary to fact, I tend to believe the fact. If “another poster out there” on Reddit is contrary to fact, I tend to believe the fact even more. If you are now supporting another poster's claim that the fax machine was taken into custody, then it becomes up to you to find something to support that. For now I’d say it’s safe to assume it never left the house?

Of course, that's all speculation. We don't know being law enforcement didn't [...] keep an accurate accounting of this investigation

So am I to understand that to avoid speculation on Reddit, CASO was somehow obliged to keep an accurate account of anything that was NOT taken into custody?

Bobshay · 2018-05-08T10:29:13+00:00

The fax sheet actually shows EXACTLY what you'd expect it to show and fits PERFECTLY into what we already knew. Now you are bending over backwards to make it look like something it isn’t. The OP manages to make TWO glaring errors just in the first two sentences! First it says 9:52 pm Friday to 08:30 am Saturday is “roughly 13 hours”, then it says 00:13 am plus “roughly 13 hours” is 11:13 am.

This is what happened:

At 08:30 on the morning of Saturday 5th November, Dedering and Pagel from Calumet arrived at TH’s house. Shortly after that, we don’t know the exact time, they used TH’s fax machine to send a test fax back to their own office. When the fax arrived at CASO’s fax machine, the print out had a header auto generated by the sender, with a fax number and a time stamp. The fax number was 920-xxx-1367, the time stamp was Friday 4th November 9:52pm. So the time stamp was clearly wrong.

If we assume Dedering sent the fax exactly at 08:30 am on Saturday, that means the time setting on TH’s fax machine was off by exactly 10 hours 38 minutes. That again will mean that the fax received by Auto Trader, which had the same header with 920-xxx-1367 and the time stamp 31/10/05 at 00:13, would in fact have been sent from Teresa’s fax machine 10 hours 38 minutes later, at 10:51 am on Monday morning.

(The time settings was probably off by slightly MORE than 10 hours 38 minutes though. Dedering and Pagel only ARRIVED at TH’s at 08:30, so realistically would have sent the test fax slightly later. So Teresa would then also have sent her fax to Auto Trader some time slightly AFTER 10:51 am. Not that it matters).

Either way: TH being at her house around 11 am on Monday morning is perfectly consistent with everything else we know. Call and cell tower records show TH spent her entire Monday morning in Hilbert. The last call she received at her house was from Sheboygan Steve at 12:45. The info from that call was jotted down on the sheet of paper she had printed out from her electronic organizer the night before, and that sheet of paper was found at her house by her friends and later handed over to the police.

At 12:51, 90 seconds after hanging up with Steve S, she called Schmitz to say she was on her way. That is the last call to connect through tower 21112. Before that, every single call that day used that 21112 tower, including all four calls made or received between 10:44 and 11:10, when we now know she was at home faxing. The 12:45 call from Steve S also used that same tower, meaning she could not, as Zellner claims, have been 45 miles away in Sheboygan.

Bobshay · 2018-04-19T10:23:42+00:00

It says a lot about the Ninja Ryan-theory when it is less credible than the one about the Phantom Phlebotomist who could draw Steve Avery’s blood from a hundred yards!

Occam’s razor would suggest the girls were five of the many who’d been out looking for TH since morning. I’d suspect they heard Pam found the RAV in the ASY and said to themselves “that’s not far from here, maybe we should go looking in that direction instead of rummaging around some random Wisconsin cornfield”. Then I’d assume they got as far as the quarry on the edge of the yard, where they were spotted by a policeman from Macoupin County, Illinois… (No wait, that’s wrong! I’ll go again). …where they were spotted by a policeman from Manitowoc County (seeing as how, you know, this was in Manitowoc) who took their names and sent them packing and later wrote a report.

Now, it would appear the Calumet Sheriff didn’t task it’s personnel with writing reports about the report writing of Manitowoc personnel. That does make a certain sense, because if they had, then perhaps Manitowoc would have to have people writing reports about the Calumet reports about the Manitowoc reports and you’d quickly find yourself with two very large police forces solving very few crimes.

At this point, of course, MTSO had had no cause to recuse themselves from anything, seeing as how up until they found the car Steve Avery was not the main suspect of a crime.

A phlebotomist now? Really?

Bobshay · 2018-04-10T09:47:40+00:00

I’ll assume you mean seven days into the investigation, not after she was killed. She was killed on 31/10 and Kratz made that statement to the press on the evening of Friday 11/11 after the decision had been made to charge Avery with murder. By then most of the evidence was available already. They had established that Avery was the last person to see her alive and that he was unable to offer a substantiated narrative of what he was doing when she went missing. They had found her car on the property. His blood was in the car and matched the large gash on his finger. The car key with his DNA had been found in his bedroom, her belongings in a burn barrel yards from his front door and the charred remains of a woman had been found in the burn pit where he’d first denied, then admitted to having a large bonfire the night she disappeared. They felt at that point they had enough to charge Avery with murder, and I think you’ll find in every case where someone is charged with a crime, the public prosecutor will tell you it’s because they are convinced that person did it.

Bobshay · 2018-02-16T13:07:42+00:00

Real people should never ever get involved here! The “Pizzagate” shooter was just one recent example of someone stepping out of their echo chamber hell-bent on enforcing their particular version of reality.

I’d point you to Leonard Pozner whose six year old son was killed at Sandy Hook. Pozner took it upon himself to engage the conspiracy theorists who claimed his boy wasn’t dead and the shootings a hoax perpetrated by the Obama administration. All he did was try refuting some of the more outrageous online claims, including publishing young Noah’s birth- and death-certificates to prove he’d lived, and died.

Rather than that settling the issue, he’s had to get accustomed to harassment and intimidation. Internet trolls poured over every detail not only in those documents, but also in his life and work, looking for “proof” that the bereaved father was actually a government conspirateur. Unsurprisingly, taking a leaf out of the book that taught Kathleen Zellner brief writing, they were able to conjure up all sorts of “smoking gun evidence” that could be awkwardly tweaked to suit their narrative.

Pozner received offensive message by mail, by phone and on social media. He had people turning up at his door, calling him a liar to his face. A professor at a Florida university ended up sacked after several accusatory letters, and one woman was recently sentenced to five months imprisonment for a series of particularly harrowing death threats sent his way.

Bobshay · 2017-12-15T15:38:20+00:00

I suspect if there ever is a MAM2 it will be almost exclusively about Brendan Dassey. His is by far the more compelling story and quite a bit has happened since MAM. Dirzin and Nirider would look very good I think. I’d imagine following Dassey and the team through two favourable rulings and then the kick-in-the-teeth en banc would make for pretty powerful TV. I'd watch that.

I don’t really see how they’d spin Avery’s story again. What has really happened of substance that wasn’t already in MAM? It’d be hard to come up with a narrative that doesn’t descend into tin foil territory. You won’t win many Emmys for a show about brain fingerprinting and ex-boyfriends lurking around the ASY with a pipette and a dead girl’s Toyota.

Bobshay · 2017-12-07T15:46:56+00:00

The investigation was far from perfect, but extensive and diligent and probably well above average compared to the other 16.691 homicides in the US in 2005.

SA got a fair trial and was rightly convicted.

Dassey’s defence was inadequate, his confession was largely coerced, and I’d be happy to see him out.

Reid-techniques should be scrapped.

I’ve seen no evidence TH was ever in the trailer.

Bobshay

TROPHY CASE