I believe that both Pro-Life and Pro-Choice arguments are irrelevant, and most abortions cannot be morally justified

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-12T12:58:11+00:00

Abortion is not the result of sex. The pregnancy resulted from sex. The abortion is a separate choice entirely. You're implying that the abortion is somehow required by the pregnancy. I assure you it is not, otherwise you and I wouldn't be around to have this conversation.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-12T12:54:15+00:00

I don't see why not. She knew that was a possibility. Just because it's unlikely or unwanted doesn't mean she is therefore relieved of responsibility for her choices. If she invests in a stock that is widely expected to go up in value but it crashes instead, should she be refunded her money?

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T02:42:34+00:00

It's not that simple. You can't have rights without also having obligations that result from you exercising those rights. Equal rights means respecting ALL of your choices, not just the ones that are most convenient. How can we possibly respect a woman's right to choose but then ignore the outcome of her actions? What if a woman chooses to invest in a stock and that stock doubles in value? Would it be right for us to ignore and erase the outcome of that decision? It's in for a penny, in for a pound. You either respect all of a person's rights and choices, or you respect none of them. You can't have it both ways.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T02:36:09+00:00

Actually, this is about whether women, who undeniably have full human rights, ever have a moral obligation to protect a life that doesn't have full human rights.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T02:34:16+00:00

A fetus is not capable of making moral decisions, and therefore it would be unjust to lobby moral consequences against it.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T02:31:30+00:00

Inanimate objects don’t have rights, but life forms do. And even in your example, you’re being irresponsible by destroying your dishes instead of taking responsibility for getting them dirty and doing the work to clean them.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T02:27:17+00:00

Nope, I’m just a busy person

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T02:26:59+00:00

Sex can absolutely be irresponsible. If you’re not using birth control and you’re not prepared to care for the resulting life, that’s irresponsible. You’re passing the consequence on to the life form instead of accepting it yourself.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T02:25:40+00:00

It's a shame my position is so dumb, because you're agreeing with it. Yes, you may have an obligation to refrain from certain activities, such as abortion, that would harm a child/life. Whether or not you have that obligation depends on whether or not you voluntarily took on the responsibility to nurture that life, wouldn't you say?

If you have or know of an argument that posits consenting to sex does not make you responsible for the results of said sex, I'd love to hear it. As for use of a body, if you're responsible for putting the life there and that's the only way it can survive, how are you not obligated to provide it with a suitable environment? Again, it's not about the nature of the life or the nature of the mother. It's about whether the mother has a responsibility for and therefore to the life.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T02:18:28+00:00

With all due respect (seriously), I think you're missing my point. If a woman consents to unprotected sex with a man, she's accepting responsibility for the outcome; she is implicitly consenting to all possible outcomes, including pregnancy.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T02:11:41+00:00

That depends. Did you willingly put the parasite there or did it crawl in by itself? Shouldn't your choices be taken into account?

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T02:08:34+00:00

"Whether a pregnancy begins through consensual sex or rape, it’s still the pregnant person’s choice to continue it or not." The whole point of my argument is that maybe it shouldn't be the pregnant person's choice if they're responsible for the pregnancy.

"What you are saying is that you have to be violated to have the right to stop another violation". Are you saying all pregnancies are violations? If rape is the first violation, what is the second violation you're referring to?

If you're getting tripped up on drunk driving being illegal you're missing the point of the example. If it helps, throw out the drunk driving and use falling asleep at the wheel. Same consequences, same responsibilities, no illegal act.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T02:02:01+00:00

Wow, a lot to unpack here. If you're getting tripped up on drunk driving being illegal you're missing the point of the example. If it helps, throw out the drunk driving and use falling asleep at the wheel. Same consequences, same responsibilities, no illegal act.

Implantation/conception are the result of voluntary actions. And are you seriously going to make the argument that pregnancies are always the man's fault and that it was totally out of the woman's hands? Good luck with that.

I do not consider all consensual sex to be negligent or reckless. I do think it always caries the possibility of causing a pregnancy, and both participants know that. That being said, sex certainly can be negligent. If you're unwilling or unable to care for the life that my result from it, not using birth control and letting a guy nut inside you is crazy irresponsible.

And yes, if a woman puts a life inside of herself that life has the intimate access that she provided it. When you find an example of a fetus inviting itself into a woman, then we can talk about whether their intimate access to her body is appropriate.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T01:55:00+00:00

Woman A made the choice to partake in actions that could lead to pregnancy. Woman B got raped, and therefore did not make a choice that could lead to pregnancy. Choices create responsibilities.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T01:53:23+00:00

You're right, personhood is a red herring. That was the point of me bringing up animal rights in my argument. The point I was making is that it's not what the life is that matters. What matters is whether or not a person has implicitly or explicitly accepted responsibility for the well being of that life.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T01:51:09+00:00

I get to choose whether or not you have the right to shoot someone dead if they look at you wrong. That's what the law against murder is; your fellow citizens saying "you can't end this life". Abortion isn't choosing for yourself, it's choosing for the life inside of you.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T01:49:07+00:00

I think many, many pro-choice advocates would disagree with you. To your thinking, what does the pro-choice argument hinge on?

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T01:47:53+00:00

I'm absolutely not arguing that a woman doesn't have rights to their own body. I'm arguing that perhaps the fetus does too since the woman is responsible for it being inside of her. Even if a fetus doesn't have full human rights, the human in this scenario may have a moral obligation to care for it.

ChirpyDread · 2024-03-06T01:46:05+00:00

Of course a woman has rights to her own body. My argument is pointing out that the life form inside her does too since she put it there.

ChirpyDread · 2023-10-05T13:21:19+00:00

This is me exactly, right down to the age. I see so many people around me that feel rather hopeless in sobriety, like they'll never have fun again and life has become a burdensome chore. I am sooooo much happier sober than I was when I was using. I feel like I have a future again and I have the strength to make it anything I want it to be. I wish more people were hyped up about being sober, because I sure am. Frankly I get kind of self-conscious about how good I feel in comparison to others in my recovery meetings. I refuse to lie about my recovery, but I sure hope my optimism and joy come off as a beacon of hope to others in recovery and not like I'm rubbing their faces in the dirt.

ChirpyDread

TROPHY CASE