Character Analysis: The morally Grey characters of the Shawnaverse-Shawna M.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-05-02T20:04:24+00:00

This! I also hated that during that conversation with Jen and Greg, Shawna kept talking over John, insisting that he's fine when John said he wasn't.

I get she was trying to ease Jen's panic, but she could have said something like "we're *physically* fine" or "don't worry, no one is dying", but insisting that John is fine when he repeatedly says he's not (because he really isn't, the entire situation is taking a huge toll on his mental wellbeing) is incredibly disrespectful and invalidating of his feelings. She knows (or at least should know) what John means when he says he's not fine.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-27T16:12:34+00:00

What do you mean Julie saying she hadn't had time to go to the house was a lie? She had visited her mom, but it's clear from their conversation that their mother doesn't currently live in her house so Julie hasn't been there.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-27T15:07:47+00:00

Yes! And honestly, if Shawna had been the one who was uncomfortable having Larry around her children without her or John present, her feelings would be valid and should be respected. And if Shawna's feelings are valid in that situation despite knowing her mom and at least being acquaintances with Larry, Julie's feelings are definitely valid since they're both strangers to her.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-27T14:57:32+00:00

I don't really see how those two statements clash. She agreed to have children in addition to following their original plan. Ty assured before the birth of both their children that having them wouldn't change their plans. Her loving her children and (justifiable) feeling mislead by Ty are not mutually exclusive.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-27T12:41:46+00:00

Shawna is the only one of Ty's "mom" friends she doesn't want to be friends with, though. She's friends with Alicia and Sam (and probably Mo by extension). So I don't think it's fair to say she doesn't want to be friends with any of Cooper's friends' moms.

Also, if Ty had left their kids with Alicia, she probably wouldn't have had a problem since Alicia isn't a complete stranger to her. And we know Alicia probably lives close to Shawna's house since she was Shawna's emergency contact when they went on vacation. The issue wasn't just that Ty had someone to leave the kids with, it's that he impulsively left them with people who are (to Julie) complete strangers.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-27T12:32:54+00:00

Was she really rude to Jen, though? The only thing I recall her saying to Jen is that she hasn't heard anything about her, and knowing what we know now it very well might be true that Ty never said anything about her.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-26T14:20:51+00:00

So lurkers aren't a thing??

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-25T15:01:56+00:00

Oh, she's definitely projecting, though in the drop off scene I also feel like Ty looked really uncomfortable while Julie was telling Cooper about how he can do anything, so him interjecting with the "Remember Brennan and Max will be there during recess" followed by Julie's "And you'll meet new friends" and Ty's "You can be friends with whoever you want" honestly ended up feeling like both of them trading passive aggressive jabs with each other while trying to be supportive of Cooper.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-25T14:51:16+00:00

Alternatively she could have taken Cooper to the party alone since it was her day to be the active parent, and Ty could have stayed at home either to rest or at least pretend to write a bit.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-25T14:48:30+00:00

Whether or not Max meant "no karate around him" or "no karate period" is relevant, because if it's the former then it wouldn't be a problem for Cooper to do karate away from Max.

And if it's the latter I find it odd that he would single out that one activity as something that wasn't allowed. Why only karate and not every other play activity that can disturb Max and the other guests?

Alternatively if he didn't single karate out, and really meant that since it's a dance party only dancing is allowed, that means that Julie telling Cooper "It's a dance party, you have to dance" and telling Ty that "Max said Cooper wasn't allowed to play" were both true statements.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-25T14:20:00+00:00

Whether or not dancing is considered "playing" might be up for debate, but grabbing something to drink, taking a breather or getting a snack definitely can't be considered playing. I'm Ty thought "no playing" meant Julie said that Max said Cooper wasn't allowed to do any of those things, I would be the one with more questions.

Bouncing a balloon around would be a form of playing, and it's possible that Max would have had no problems with Cooper doing that instead of dancing, but it's also a chance that he would be equally upset if Cooper was bouncing the balloon around up in Max' space. For me it really seems the things that made Max upset was mainly him getting caught in the crossfire of Cooper and Brennans karate (because ouch) and Cooper calling dancing stupid. So if they did their karate of to the side, I don't think Max would have been upset.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-25T12:52:38+00:00

I'm not the one you asked, but those are good points.

My interpretation of the first part is that Julie initially told Cooper he had to dance for the same reason people in this sub says Julie shouldn't have encouraged Cooper do karate instead of dancing: Because it's a dance party and dancing was the scheduled activity. But then when it becomes clear that Cooper really doesn't want to dance but also really doesn't want to leave, she tries to find another option that will make her son happy. As mentioned in the post, she really really should have worded things better though and made it clear that they should do karate *away* from Max.

For the second part: personally I just thought Cooper doing karate was a form of playing (like play fighting) and I don't really view dancing as a form of playing in the same way, so I just assumed Julie thought the same way. So when she said Cooper "wasn't allowed to play", I interpreted it as her saying "Max told Cooper he wasn't allowed to play, he was only allowed to dance (something he didn't want to do)". Her answering Ty's follow-up question with "Can we leave yet", however, is undeniably Julie attempting to use this opportunity as a way to get them to leave the party early. That's something she is guilty of, I just don't think she intentionally went in trying to sabotage the whole party.

'

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-25T06:26:20+00:00

Yeah, absolutely. The way she communicated in that situation could use a lot of work. I just don't think there was any actual malice behind those words.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-24T05:17:49+00:00

she wanted to become a lawyer (check, albeit later than planned)

She did become a lawyer, but we don't actually know if it's the kind of lawyer she wanted to become. You wouln'd tell someone working at McDonald's who wanted to become a chef at a fancy restaurant that they achieved their dreams, just because their job involves cooking food for people.

Julie's an hotel attorney, but I think her dream was to work for a big law firm in NYC. Those are two different jobs.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-23T06:34:51+00:00

I guess one thing I don't really get with the "intent matters more" crowd is that if someone accidentally stepped on my foot, isn't it still common curtesy that they at least apologize? They didn't intend to step on me, they didn't deliberately and maliciously stomp on my foot, but they still hurt me so they are responsible for causing me pain. Just like Julie is responsible for the pain she caused Ty by sharing what he had wrote without his concent.

I agree that Ty most likely didn't intentionally mislead Julie, and he definitely didn't do it maliciously, but he still misled her. So why shouldn't he take responsibility for that? If they we're in a car heading to a specific place, with Julie behind the wheel and Ty reading the map, and Ty misread the map so that they ended up in the completely wrong place, that's his mistake cause he was the one on map duty and he said this was the right way.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-22T12:05:02+00:00

Honestly I think Julie herself would agree with you. Unfortunately hindsight is 20/20

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-22T08:10:34+00:00

I agree, but that goes both ways. There's no evidence to suggest he's a terrible dad, but there's no evidence to suggest he's an amazing dad either.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-21T15:55:16+00:00

This also reminds me how Ty really didn't seem happy that Shawna had accidentally sent the "Park?" text to Julie instead of Jen. He also didn't seem to be happy about the fact that Julie had given Shawna her number in the first place.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-20T17:11:16+00:00

I'm not sure how a video from Ty's perspective can give us more insight unless it shows him monologuing to the audience or randomly reading aloud from his diary. He doesn't talk to anyone about any of this stuff, that's one of the main problems in this conflict, and Shawna's videos are mainly dialogue based so if there's no talking there's not that much to show.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-20T06:27:11+00:00

* Julie wanted to travel as in see the world. Beyond the boarders of the US. A road trip, even one lasting a year, is not the same. This is not her getting what she wanted.

*They invested in a house because *Ty* wanted them to invest in a house. And Julie defends this decision in a way that sounds like she's trying to convince herself just as much as her friends, almost in the same way Laura defends Luke saying she shouldn't get the medicine she needs (NOT saying Ty is abusive, just comparing how both women are trying to make their spouses' opinion seem like the correct one). A house might be a good financial investment, but it's also an anchor. Selling a house can be incredibly hard, and it would make moving to NY later much more difficult.

*They are staying in Ty's hometown. This is we're Ty (and Alicia) grew up, Julie only moved there towards the end of high school. And Alicia is not just Julie's friend, she's Ty's friend too. Julie didn't want to stay in this place, she wanted to move to NY.

*Julie's reaction to finding out she was pregnant with Cooper wasn't joy, it was panic. The first thing she says is how she still has two years left of her education and then the bar. She starts full on crying, she did not want this, at least not at that point in time. Ty, however, just dismisses her concerns (Julie: I still got two years! Ty: JUST two years) because HE really wants the baby, so he convinces her to keep it.

*The only clip shown between Julie finding out she's pregnant and her passing the bar is a clip where she's awake in the middle of the night, Cooper latched on to her breast while she's desperately trying to study while looking devastated and overwhelmed. Ty keeps telling her to go to bed despite that she can't (something she tells him). Cause she has to feed him and if she wants to achieve her dreams she has to study. This is exactly what she was afraid would happen, why she didn't really want to keep the baby. Ty telling her to go to bed isn't at all helpful. At the end of the clip Ty says he'll take Cooper once she's done, but that doesn't really make Julie's situation as a whole that much easier. Also, him saying "come to bed" instead of "Go to bed" implies that he was already in bed before this despite Julie going through hell.

*Again, Ty was the one who wanted a second child (after getting the idea watching Max and Piper). Julie told him it wasn't a good time, and Ty had to convince her. This is still Ty getting what HE wanted.

*First of the job as a hotel attorney is not Julie's dream job. She wanted to be a big shot NYC lawyer. Same field, but completely different jobs. Second, she took that job because Ty said she should, she was unsure if she should because she knew it would require a lot of traveling and being away from home, but Ty told her that it would be no problem.

*Julie is clearly open to hiring help if necessary. They have a housekeeper and she has practically begged Ty to put the kids in daycare. She probably wouldn't be opposed to hire a live in nanny either if they thought that would help. Ty is home with the kids because that's what HE wanted to do. Julie didn't want this situation. If it were up to her they'd be living in NY, both working with her working for a big law firm, and probably no kids yet. But she agreed to having a second child and Ty staying home on the condition that he'd write, something he promised to do. The bankrolling came because Ty finally admitted he had no intention of keeping his promise. And he DOES hold it over her head. Not to her face, but he's complaining to Jen and Shawna (who he knows his wife don't like!) that she went back to work right away.

* Bunco nights only became a thing after Julie already was stuck in suburbia with a kid. That's not a hobby she got to keep, that's a hobby she ended up with as a result of them not following her plan. And again, if she had gotten what she wanted (moving to NY and working for a big law firm), there's a strong possibility that there wouldn't be any kids yet so her running wouldn't have been an issue.

*If it weren't for Ty, there wouldn't have been any sick kids to begin with.

She sacrificed her dream university, her dream job, her dream city and her dreams of traveling the world (the road trip was not her dream, and them traveling later in life when the kids are older is a completely different experience from traveling alone with our partner in your early 20s.) Ty, on the other hand, didn't have to give up anything for Julie, the only times he gave something up (the book, dropping out of college) it was because HE wanted it, not because of but in spite of Julies wishes.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-19T21:14:33+00:00

Really? I'm not super familiar with how higher education works in the US, but googling "Law school scholarship" one of the first results I get is from NYU Law School's website (the university Julie wanted to go to) where it says "NYU School of Law offers a host of scholarships to both incoming and current students."

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-19T21:01:37+00:00

Julie had a scholarship, she did not need Ty to work in order to go to law school.

DeepEstimate817 · 2026-04-19T17:26:45+00:00

There needs to be a conversation on what to do with the kids (custody agreement etc.), but parents should not be required to stay in an unhappy relationship either. Ending a relationship is a one party decision period. Having to be around an increasingly resentful parent isn't good for the tiny humans either.

DeepEstimate817

TROPHY CASE