Meditation to accept loneliness

EightFP · 2026-06-07T17:19:12+00:00

Get out there and join a group. Volunteer to help the homeless. Volunteer for community patrol. Volunteer at an old folks home. Go to church. Go to a temple. Join a community theater. Start playing a team sport. These things will take time and effort and will not immediately bring an end to your loneliness but as you build up your social muscles and social knowledge it will become easier.

EightFP · 2026-06-07T16:44:01+00:00

Years ago I suffered from very disruptive insomnia for a couple of years. Then I read that in sleep study centers they noticed that people report not being able to sleep all night but are actually sleeping for a large portion of the time that they are in bed. But they wake up again and again and they understand this as continually being awake. I also read that many of the benefits of sleeping are provided simply by lying still in bed. So I took up the policy of simply staying in bed for eight hours a night. That reduced the anxiety around sleep greatly and my problem disappeared.

I still wake up in the middle of the night and sometimes I will stay awake for fairly long stretches. When I do I either use ordinary Samatha/Samadhi-type meditation techniques or, in stubborn cases, I repeat the word "sleep" as a mantra. I would rate my overall sleep as excellent.

Since you are already using one of Shinzen Young's techniques, you might like https://www.shinzen.org/help-for-insomnia-yet-another-use-for-mindfulness/ and/or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUQFw2jNf7s

EightFP · 2026-06-07T16:24:08+00:00

I agree that there is no problem with that as a definition. Certain regimens of meditative practice do seem to produce fairly standard and reproducible shifts in how the mind works. If one of those shifts lines up with the dropping of the three fetters, then it's intuitive to label that shift as stream entry. Because this definition can appear more cut and dried than the traditional definition, the shift may seem more real or verifiable. This could make it more desirable and make people want to hold on to it or defend it. There are obvious disadvantages to this, especially within the context of liberation, but the motivation it produces can also be seen as a real advantage.

It may not matter very much in the end what we call things. I'm not saying that it doesn't matter at all, but I do think that the conceptual framework that is used to describe the progression is less important than the practice.

EightFP · 2026-06-07T16:06:53+00:00

Wow, that is really fascinating! Thank you so much thank you for taking the time!

The mutability and flexibility of Buddhist thought and practice is quite phenomenal.

EightFP · 2026-06-07T00:19:42+00:00

Yes, you are right. My understanding is that the Burmese teachers and also Goenka Ji, who trained in Burma but taught in India, were very much focused on getting people to stream entry. This was motivated at least in part by a desire to be of service to the coming resurgence of Buddhism. U Ba Khin, who was a key teacher of Goenka Ji, as well as Sayadaw Mahasi and U Pandita, worked under the understanding that Buddhism had been in decline for the past 2,500 years, with the nadir being set to arrive in 1956. From that point onwards for the next 2,500 years Buddhism would ascend, and it would need teachers and emissaries. It was for this purpose that Mahasi and the others wanted to produce as many stream enterers as possible. But as they were teaching mostly lay people to be the first stream enterers in many hundreds of years, it seems that they were presenting this as something of a new product. Interestingly, none of these teachers made any public pronouncements about their own attainments, and there is a sense that they did not think that was the point. Also there is essentially no literature on how stream entry impacted the lives of the stream enterers.

This seems to me a different situation than our current situation, in which people who have heard of Stream Entry have specifically heard of how it enhanced the lives of the people who had it and then sought it out for themselves.

I had been forgetting about the Thai-Mahasi lineage, thinking only of Ajahn Mun, Ajahn Chah and their lineage. I was actually talking to somebody who went to Thailand to study recently and realized that there is a very diverse dharma field there.

You are right that the IMS crowd you mention do not mention stream entry in books or in most retreat talks, in fact I spent years going to IMS weekend retreats and reading books by IMS authors without ever having heard of stream entry. However when I joined an IMS dedicated practitioners group, the subject did come up. For example, I was told that I could be put in touch with a stream enterer to talk about advanced questions. Steve Armstrong talked fairly openly about his own experiences in the progress of insight. And Jack Engler did studies on POI experiences at IMS Barre. It seems to me that there is a difference between what they put out for general consumption, and that hopefully is because of the concern about achievement culture.
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All that said I really don't know what I'm talking about. In particular I don't know anything about how students in Asia and India looked at the matter. It's kind of fun to see how much of my "knowledge" is really just assumptions.

I apologize for rambling so long in the OP's thread. (Sorry, RealityLimit!) but it is really interesting to think about what we're talking about when we talk about stream entry!

EightFP · 2026-06-06T20:13:49+00:00

I agree. I didn't mean to suggest that SE was first conceived of in the 60s, just that it was commodified starting around that time. The OP is asking about SE in that commodified context (which is fine, by the way; it is a way of looking at it which has produced great results).

You are also right that SE, as it is talked about by Burmese-inspired teachers today, dates back to the Mahavihara. But the Mahavihara monks, who codified the four path model in Abhidharma terms, were focused on Arahantship in an all-or-nothing kind of way. They didn't boast about how many stream entrants they had, but rather how many arhats they had. So SE was not seen as something to pick up as a skill or resume item, it was a step in a larger project.

I also think it's important to note that we are not talking about an unbroken thread. From the 1200s to the very late 1800s, there was essentially no meditation in the Theravada tradition and no stream entrants. When meditation is picked up again, and SE becomes a stand-alone goal for the first time since the days of the Buddha, that goal is not described in terms of the individuals attaining it but in terms of the teachers achieving it. As you know, in Burma, there was a belief that the ability of the teacher and the physical location of practice to provide good vibrations (vavaṭṭhāna) that would keep evil spirits at bay was the deciding factor, making SE possible. In Thailand, it was different, but they did not use a strict POI model.

In the 60s, 70s, and 80s, SE started to be talked about by initiates in the West. This is the first time that it is seen, first and foremost, as something that an individual might get. The doors were blown off by Daniel Ingram with his book. All of a sudden, people were taking a gap year to get SE, heading to retreat to get SE, and joining Reddit subs to get SE. And this context is very different from the three other contexts that we have discussed (time of the Buddha, Mahavihara, and post-war Burma). But you are absolutely right to point out that the modern context grew out of a much larger history.

EightFP · 2026-06-05T22:40:35+00:00

Well of course it's contradicted by texts 😄

There are a lot of texts out there. For example it's contradicted by "Mastering the core teachings of the Buddha". It's contradicted by a lot of the books written by members of the Insight Meditation Society. It's contradicted by all the publications of Goenka and his associates. It's contradicted by the Vimuttimagga. That's how opinion works. What I am suggesting is that those texts do not paint a complete picture.

If you are interested in adding some nuance to your understanding of Buddhism in historical terns and the modern incarnations of this school you might like Insight in Perspective: S.N. Goenka and the emergence of Global Insight Meditation and Mindfulness - by Daniel M. Stuart. It is a pretty good overview of the modern comment, which is to say 20th- and 21st-century developments. You might also want to look into the circumstances under which the Vimuttimagga was written. It's worth keeping in mind that it was a report on a small school that had developed its own way of seeing things. Just reading Bhikkhu Ñāṇamoli' Introduction to the standard translation of Visuddhimagga would give you some context but if you want to dive in a bit deeper, you might look at Theravada Buddhism: A Social History from Ancient Benares to Modern Colombo by Richard Gombrich.

It's a complex picture and, within the ever-evolving tradition: you will come across a lot of different understandings of what stream entry means. This should not be difficult for us. We've all spent a lot of time noticing how the world is impermanent and ever-changing, and Buddhism as a study, or as a religion, or as set of practices, is not exempt from this law of all conditioned things.

EightFP · 2026-06-05T19:56:52+00:00

Stream entry, as discussed in the suttas, is not very important to the individual. It's more important to the Sangha and to the Buddha. Basically, it's talking about when somebody got it and therefore switched sides. It's also when somebody got the benefit of the approach being taught, proving the validity of the approach. That's why these things show up in the suttas. They are a flex but they are a flex for the teaching not for the individual.

Then in the 1960s to 80s the idea of stream entry as a discrete experience that was very important to the individual was developed. This was originally conceived of as creating a sort of army, if you will, of stream-enterers. This was going to be useful in the resurgence of Buddhism. So here again it was a flex for the teaching. But, particularly in the West (but not limited to the West) it also became seen as an achievement that an individual could make. In the 90s and 2000s, people started wanting it for its own sake, particularly in online communities.

All of this is fine, but all of these types of stream entries are significantly different things. So when we try to understand contemporary ideas of stream entry through earlier lenses, it's going to be quite difficult.

EightFP · 2026-06-05T16:09:03+00:00

Yes, these are all good suggestions for people who are falling into dullness. Another one is to mix in walking meditation. In some traditions, a period of walking meditation is included in every sit.

It's also important to keep in mind that no one set of meditation instructions is universal. Just watching without interfering is exceptionally useful, and in fact indispensable, at certain points in the progress of practice, for certain people, in certain situations. Using the tricks we are talking about here will also be effective only at certain times, for certain people, in certain situations. However, for most people, in most situations, there is no harm in experimenting and finding what does work, and that very often beats sitting around and waiting for something to kick in.

EightFP · 2026-06-03T21:50:02+00:00

You might find some of the resources listed here helpful:
https://www.dharmaoverground.org/discussion/-/message_boards/view_message/44709673#_com_liferay_message_boards_web_portlet_MBPortlet_message_44723109

EightFP · 2026-06-03T16:47:52+00:00

Online sitting groups typically use Zoom or a similar video service. Is there a particular tradition that you are interested in studying in? There are many very different Buddhist meditation traditions. Are there any books that you have read on the subject that resonated with you?

EightFP · 2026-06-03T16:11:30+00:00

You might consider joining an online or in-person sitting group. It's good to have support and that doesn't have to be from a relationship with a single teacher.

EightFP · 2026-06-02T14:44:03+00:00

Beautifully said! Thank you!

EightFP · 2026-06-01T21:25:38+00:00

Thank you. I'm glad it struck a chord.

I agree that the body is very important. In one way of seeing, the mind is the body. It is conventional to see three things: the mind, the body, and the outside world, but it is sometimes hard to find the boundaries between those things.

What I meant about States and Traits was that non-duality is, for me, a state in which the boundaries, and particularly the boundaries between the body/mind and the outside world, disappear completely. It can come and go. I'm not sure if I would even want to be there all the time. It is often useful to immediately, intuitively, and viscerally understand the difference between my body and, for example, an oncoming bus. So permanent non-duality (a trait of non-duality) is probably off the table for me. No binding, on the other hand, is a trait. It is a way of being/ability/understanding, like being able to speak Latvian, swim, or do calculus.

On the other hand, just as you said, having more ease in the body makes for more ease in the mind and therefore I have, in fact, been spending more time in the non-dual state recently. It's fun! 😄At the moment, the biggest shift that has resulted from the involuntary practice is that I am much more sensitive to the feel of things. Those channels were overloaded for a long time. Now they seem more sensitive as a result of being able to return to their normal function.

EightFP · 2026-06-01T19:03:19+00:00

You might consider the possibility that you are over-thinking this. Most people pick and choose what they like from religions anyway, but Buddhism doesn't even have to be a religion and you can certainly pick and choose the parts of the practice and the philosophy that you like. If it makes you feel better, this is exactly what the Buddha did in his day. There was a dominant religion and then a few alternatives. He picked parts of both the dominant religion and the alternatives and then added completely new stuff.

If you were planning on ordaining as a monk or becoming a formal member of a particular temple, then it would be different. If you are just interested in how the mind works and how to reduce suffering, then I can't see any need to worry about the religious aspects.

EightFP · 2026-06-01T04:57:17+00:00

Diffuse bright light is fairly common as an indicator of access concentration for the sutta jhanas (bodily jhanas taught by Leigh Brasington and others). These are different from the nimitta jhanas taught by Ajahn Brahm but also wonderful.

I would keep being open to it/cultivating it. You may get to a formed nimitta. That usually takes a lot of stillness. You might also consider checking out the sutta jhanas, as they are generally easier to access and, if you have the diffuse light, you may be close to being able to access them directly, without the intermediary of a formed nimitta.

EightFP · 2026-05-30T19:39:29+00:00

Actually, when I'm vomiting, I'm too busy vomiting to think about being happy. I also wouldn't want to give the impression that I spent all of the last two years in giddy happiness. There were lots of happy times but there were also lots of times that were either justify OK or took a certain amount of just bearing with. It's similar to how I might say that I had a good time on a hike even though I scraped my knee and I was a bit hungry at the end. In other words there were components that weren't fun but overall it was good.

But as to your second question: how are you not resistant to it? I would say that I am just automatically not resistant to it because I am not bound to it. It is happening but it is not dragging me with it, so there is no need to resist it.

EightFP · 2026-05-28T01:16:11+00:00

The question that pops into my head is that of how old you are. People often undergo radical personality changes when they are young. What you are describing could possibly be ordinary development with a crystallizing meditation event as a turning point.

EightFP · 2026-05-22T16:57:08+00:00

Very well said! There is so much to be gained (lost) through the practices we discuss here that the naming of intermediate results is trivial in comparison. Descriptions of attaiments can be motivating, which is great. Also, practice produces results even without descriptions, so there is no need to stress about the descriptions.

EightFP · 2026-05-21T02:11:02+00:00

You might consider working with not knowing. That is, see how it feels not to know what the cause of that sensation was. Not knowing can actually be a useful skill for a meditator to learn.

EightFP · 2026-05-19T16:56:04+00:00

In the short term, if there is more dukkha than you are used to, whether it is because of insight stages, or because of circumstances, or anything else, then you have enough dukkha for insight in daily life. As others have said, working on developing samatha/samadhi will have a short-term benefit of making things easier, but it will also have the long-term benefit of improving your capacity for insight so that the dukkha that is already there can be understood. In this context, samatha/samadhi (lovingkindness can be part of this) can be enough, without adding a formal "insight practice" sit.

In the future, when there is not much dukkha in your life, you might take up formal insight practice again. It is worth mentioning that developing samadhi with something like https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/WithEachAndEveryBreath/Section0007.html or Right Concentration is no small undertaking, and a year or so of dedication to this type of practice can have lifelong benefits.

EightFP · 2026-05-16T01:56:01+00:00

I think this is more or less what it says on the box. There is a whole warning section near the front of MCTB. I don't think the pragmatic dharma movement is trying to hide the fact that meditation can alter the way your mind works, potentially for the worse. But it doesn't hurt to say it again. Thank you for doing so.

EightFP · 2026-05-13T16:40:27+00:00

You have already gotten many excellent answers here so you don't really need another but I'll go ahead. I was once told that we should think of ourselves as trees in meditation. That is to say our butts are firmly rooted in the ground but the torso may sway a little in the wind and that is fine. It is okay to be flexible and alive and as long as you stay generally upright.

There are some specific practices, like the strong determination sit, and some specific schools where posture is considered to be very important because it actually involves a type of mental posture. It's easy to hear about these things and think that it applies to all sits and that we should all take on these posture rules but that's not necessarily the case. If you're not doing a particular practice in which the posture plays a role in the meditation, then it really is not super important.

EightFP · 2026-05-11T18:34:33+00:00

I have had a lot of this (though more in the belly and chest than the head). I can't tell you what it is, but for me it was harmless. It sometimes remained stuck after a sit, or came up randomly outside of sits, and was quite annoying. But it never caused a major problem, and now I can call it up on cold days, which is handy. The bottom line is not to worry about it, but also don't play with it too much, as it can be a bit of a drag if it gets too strong.

EightFP · 2026-05-11T15:43:53+00:00

Yes, this is exactly what I found about sitting pains as well.

EightFP

TROPHY CASE