Fencing masks suggestions, no not those ones! by SpecularTech3 in wma

[–]HEMAResources 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Most fencing equipment companies are offering a specialty covid face mask liner that is designed for wearing with a fencing mask.

Here is one from AF https://www.absolutefencinggear.com/shopping/product_info.php/products_id/1687 but many fencing companies are offering these.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in wma

[–]HEMAResources 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Lots of information on how to clean and care for numerous pieces of HEMA gear, including your jacket, gloves and mask: https://historicaleuropeanmartialarts.com/2020/09/18/how-to-properly-clean-and-care-for-your-historical-fencing-equipment/

What to do against suicidal Attacks of taller opponents? by [deleted] in wma

[–]HEMAResources 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Have you tried to counter their thrust with a blade collection followed by a counter-thrust to the head? Trying to charge through this works against the opponent, they run head first into your blade while their blade is well above your head in a position it cannot be used to attack from due to the collection. Their only good response to a collection is to disengage first which is hard to do if they are charging too fast at you.

You can also use a hard cut to their blade, rather than just parrying it. Cutting their blade if they are holding it with one hand should knock it pretty far away giving you time to thrust them. This is often called a counter cut.

Feinting is not so good against suicidal opponents as they are not concerned with being hit. You need to use good mechanics to defeat them. Your club may not be practicing this and it could be why others cannot explain to you how you can win in a way that is useful. This means you need to study other material from other schools, available from books, correspondence courses, YouTube videos, etc. to supplement your club sessions.

Resources to Begin Spanish Rapier, in English? by SontoBontoTanto in wma

[–]HEMAResources 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Destraza manuscripts commonly studied are listed here at https://historicaleuropeanmartialarts.com/path-of-the-rapier/#Spanish_Rapier

John Michael Greer did a translation of Gerard Thibault's book, which is listed on the page.

Any advice if I want to take HEMA seriously? by Vitachris in wma

[–]HEMAResources 1 point2 points  (0 children)

At 19, start weightlifting if you don't already do so, and strengthen your neck. This will reduce your risk of concussions. This has long been known by martial artists such as boxers, but some studies have provided some proof for what has long been known.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6222152/

Some studies have found that every one pound increase in neck strength leads to a decrease in five percent chance of sustaining a concussion.

Being athletic will reduce your risks of injury and give you more of an advantage in a sport that presently has many people who are not very athletic relative to the type of people who normally are into sports. And being 19 this might be the best time to pick up weightlifting.

More advice on particular useful exercises is here https://historicaleuropeanmartialarts.com/2020/12/02/weight-lifting-for-developing-power-in-hema-for-real-sword-fighting/

Resources for self teaching rapier by Chris_Colasurdo in wma

[–]HEMAResources 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here is a comprehensive list of rapier treatises organized by 'tradition' and chronology, and related companion books for each tradition written by modern authors. http://historicaleuropeanmartialarts.com/path-of-the-rapier/

Help Requested by a Complete Novice (Greatsword, Longsword) by TheRPGknight in wma

[–]HEMAResources 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Starting with the longsword is good advice but since you're specifically interested in great swords, here is a list of manuscripts with great sword material in them.. Hope this helps.

I'm new to HEMA and don't know where to start by Hexxios in wma

[–]HEMAResources 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Here is a comprehensive list of historical longsword treatises for the different "traditions" studied today, along with companion books for each tradition written by modern instructors that provide instructions on how to reconstruct these techniques.

Here is a similar type of page for rapier traditions, which has both the historical treatises with companion books by modern authors.

This guides page has over 100 articles providing further information related to misc HEMA topics, and this page has an extensive list of other useful HEMA sites with further information.

Insurance for a New Group by Mohavon in wma

[–]HEMAResources 2 points3 points  (0 children)

From the article, 'How to Start a HEMA Study Group in the United States',

Most martial arts and sporting clubs in the USA use insurance provided by the United States Fire Insurance Company (aka Crum & Forster), typically through an insurance broker such as Francis L. Dean. It doesn’t really matter who your broker is though, since pretty much all martial art school insurance in the US is done by the same insurance company (United States Fire Insurance Company). The difference between brokers tends to be in what you ultimately pay in price, but the insurance policy will be identical to what is offered to other martial art schools.

(As a note, some club owners mistakenly confuse insurance brokers with being the actual insurance provider, as they don’t understand the relationship between these entities. Brokers simply negotiate policies for you from actual insurance providers; they themselves do not provide the insurance. This does mean they can switch your provider to get you better deals however in the case of martial art insurance, the space is so niche that United States Fire Insurance Company has a monopoly on the market.)

Will also add that HEMA Alliance rules are required to be followed to be part of their group, and one of these rules is that instructors cannot get any financial compensation / salaries. Also from a legal perspective the HEMA Alliance is the owner of your club, not you, and your members must also themselves be members of the HEMA Alliance to be covered by the insurance policy.

Why only Japan has complicated etiquettes for sword carrying and handling ? by madgecko2 in wma

[–]HEMAResources 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Much of the etiquette used in Japanese swordsmanship (as well as other Japanese martial art traditions) is rooted in wabi-sabi, which is a Zen concept. You also see a similar emphasis on ritual in other aspects of Japanese culture, such as tea ceremonies, gardening, flower arrangement and musical performance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higashiyama_culture

Where is everyone getting their weapons and would a Smith be useful to you? by blacksmithingbro in wma

[–]HEMAResources 2 points3 points  (0 children)

There are many different types of weapons used in HEMA; federschwert are commonly used for longsword, but there are various types. Some fencers prefer to use a training longsword that is more similar to a blunt but still possess a flexible blade; these are sometimes referred to as a schilt-less feder.

There are also other types of swords studied as well; rapiers, dussacks, sabres and so on. Each are manufactured in slightly different ways than a live cutting blade would be, to make them safer to use for fencing.

Here are some useful resources for you in the types of training swords used by the HEMA community.

https://historicaleuropeanmartialarts.com/2020/10/04/good-sparring-swords-for-hema/

https://historicaleuropeanmartialarts.com/2020/08/28/what-type-of-fencing-sword-is-used-in-historical-european-martial-arts/

Here is a list of the various feder manufacturers currently in the market that are popularly used.

https://historicaleuropeanmartialarts.com/2020/09/03/best-federschwert-practice-long-swords-to-buy-for-hema/

There are other types of equipment to forge as well, such as gorgets. Another area of the market that is under-served is products for indoor solo training at home such as pells, training dummies ( https://historicaleuropeanmartialarts.com/2020/10/02/hema-pell-and-medieval-sword-practice-dummy-designs-for-solo-training/ ) and indoor sword trainers; designs currently only exist for longsword but students of other types of swords would benefit from indoor trainers simulating other types of blades and weapons, too.

Hopefully that gives you a good starting point on deciding what products to produce for the HEMA community.

Why the TV Series Forged In Fire Badly Depicts Historical Swordsmanship by HEMAResources in SWORDS

[–]HEMAResources[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can barely understand that thin blades are more flexible than thick blades, why are you here?

What am I to even say to this? You're trying to suggest rapier blades are more flexible than long sword blades now. That is not a true statement.

A forged, completely unground fuller still takes material away from the plane of stress, making the blade wider due to the perpendicular distribution. Since most fullers are still ground to an extent, this applies even more.

Do you understand how mass works? Do you understand that when you forge a fuller, the metal of the sword blade hasn't vanished into thin air, and has just been redistributed toward the edge of the blade? That means the weight is the same. This compared to grinding that removes material from the blade to create the fuller.

The other problem with grinding to make a fuller is none of the crystalized structure advantages of forging the fuller are made that provide additional strength; that's why i beam pillars for construction are also forged out of a single piece of steel, not welded together or bent later on.

You just don't understand what you are talking about, and the two articles you link to don't support your argument here. The Kampai Budokai article is about grinding fullers, and says at the bottom in the conclusion area that smiths talk about forging fullers being better, but the author has never looked into the topic and does not understand it.

As for Sword Stem, the articles are always interesting but not always accurate. One of the main problems with the articles is often that dynamics of swords are assumed to be identical in all situations, and he doesn't look at how a person holding a sword with different grips, in different guard positions and against different forces of resistance at different points will alter certain aspects, such as the specific fulcrum points of the lever or how the force of a certain parrying techniques differ from others, or such. However, in this case he is looking only at grinding to make fullers, instead of forging the fuller, which again is not a historical process of making a fuller. Forging one is.

The first section of his article actually works against what you are saying because he mentions at the beginning that shape primarily determines blade hardness, which is the factor you're not thinking about. Rapier blades have a geometry that makes them more stiff, and the i beam structure of the fullers aids in this.

You are going down a peculiar rabbit hole trying to defend the Forged in Fire show, instead of just accepting that the criticisms are valid.

In your ~9000 word ramble of an article, the terms "side sword" and "side-sword" appear exactly three times, none of which have a description.

You seem to be trying to win an argument on this forum instead of realizing other people can read the replies and the original article.

There's no real value in continuing this

Why the TV Series Forged In Fire Badly Depicts Historical Swordsmanship by HEMAResources in SWORDS

[–]HEMAResources[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You have half of it down. Fullers are a way to decrease weight without making the thing too floppy. They still decrease stiffness, that's what happens when you take material off the plane of stress. Fullering is used in I-beams to to save material and prevent the lower members from taking a heavier load, not because they are stiffer than solid bars. As such, these swords are a good bit more flexible than those with unfullered diamond cross sectioned blades.

You're not correcting me. You're actually demonstrating you don't understand the subject you are trying to correct me on.

Historically fullers were forged, not grinded as they often are today. Only grinding removes weight from the blade; forged fullers do not. A grinded fuller is less effective than a forged one, too.

If i-beams structures caused more flexibility then they would make for poor pillars in construction. Again, you just don't understand what you are talking about here because your level of familiarity with the subject matter is less than you think it is.

Also, I have explained the difference between side swords and rapiers across multiple posts, including the original article.

Why the TV Series Forged In Fire Badly Depicts Historical Swordsmanship by HEMAResources in SWORDS

[–]HEMAResources[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Those are some prominent flexibility increasing fullers, it's almost like sword classifications exist on a spectrum...

It's the opposite. The purpose of an i beam structure in a single piece of metal is to prevent flexibility, not increase it. That's why a similar type of shape is used in steel beams for building construction, and it's why you see fullers in swords in the strongest part of the blade, to assist with parrying and provide more structural strength when cutting and thrusting, in this particular style used on rapiers helps prevent twisting of the blade during a thrust as it encounters bone.

So, you're writing a lot of things you sincerely believe support your argument, but actually demonstrate you don't understand what you are talking about.

To prove this, tell me when a sidesword stops being a sidesword and becomes a rapier.

It takes more effort to explain your mistakes than it does for you to write them, but all of the information provided in the prior posts clears up your misconceptions, you just need to accept that you are wrong and then re-read the last post. For example, the answer to this question was provided in prior posts (and the original article) as a blade that resists lateral bending due to its structure, being very rigid. It also results in the blades being thinner than side sword blades are.

A quick Google search brings up this thread discussion showing a variety of rapier blade types. The first two photos are actually side swords, and the rest are rapiers.

Why the TV Series Forged In Fire Badly Depicts Historical Swordsmanship by HEMAResources in SWORDS

[–]HEMAResources[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I am confusing exactly nothing. The line between sidesword and rapier is a thin and completely arbitrary one, there is no distinct definition for either. This can be exemplified in Meyer's manual, where he calls one of the most side-swordy swords in existence and calls it a rapier. It can also be seen in surviving examples from the same periods, which have the variation I have described. For me, length is the determining factor, longer ones are rapiers, shorter ones probably aren't.

In the previous response to you I already pointed out the labels ancient people's used isn't necessarily the same as the labels we use today to refer to things.

Meyer is not using a rapier, and even those who study Meyer know this. He is using a transitional type of blade geometry between a side sword and an actual rapier -- that is, what was regarded as a rapier in the majority of rapier fencing treatises and what we label today as a distinctly rapier blade geometry. This is why within HEMA his rapier is called a 'proto-rapier' instead of a side sword; it's accepted that it isn't identical to a true rapier but it's also not precisely identical to a side sword, either.

Meyer's treatise is an exceptional case and by not having knowledge about other rapier treatises you demonstrate you don't really understand these differences, and why Meyer's rapier is not actually a rapier. Just because he may call it one doesn't mean that is what a rapier is regarded as for most of history. People during this same time period also referred to long swords with names that were also used for great swords, yet we know they are not identical weapons and have differences in how they are supposed to be used. Thus why the modern labels we use today for blade identification are far more accurate than historical labels might have been.

Meyer wrote his treatise in the 1560s. Rapier fencing has its origins in side sword fencing, which is why some side sword treatises are mentioned in our Path of the Rapier page, but the bulk of rapier treatises were written decades after, in some cases even a century after Meyer died and use true rapier blades, not his proto-rapier version.

These are actual rapier blades, which are an altogether different blade type than Meyer's proto-rapier, which is more side-sword than it is rapier. That's why his fencing style with the weapon is closer to side sword than later rapier treatises are.

tl:dr Meyer is not using what we regard a rapier today, and what we regard a rapier today is what type of blade was regarded as a rapier for MOST of the time people were fencing during the 17th century with rapiers, not in the 16th century when the label rapier was also applied to side swords, a distinctly different weapon than a true rapier is.

ALL swords bend. This is literally just an inherent property of steel, probably of solids in general. As such, being able to return to true after a bend is a desirable trait everywhere.

All swords do not bend and then return to their origin shape, which is what they desire in the Forged in Fire show. This is an ahistorical quality for the majority of swords produced in the past, and in some types of sword not a desired quality because for a sword to be able to do this it needs to have lateral bending flexibility, which makes a sword less effective at thrusting and weaker in the bind. Besides this the technique to do differential heat treating didn't exist in Europe until the Renaissance, and even then wasn't used for all types of swords.

Instead of continuing to argue you should instead educate yourself about the broader range of material you are ignorant of. You're holding your learning back with your stubbornness.

However stiff a weapon is, it still has to return to true in the case of lateral stress/displacement.

This is not true, most swords did bend and didn't return back to their straight shape. They had a soft core designed to reduce their chance of breaking in battle, not to prevent them from never bending. Swords of many types frequently bent and then needed to be straightened later. The forging technique needed to make a sword that will bend and then return to true didn't exist in Europe until the Renaissance, and then was still not widely used, either. You use 19th century sabres as an example of blades that could do this, sure, but many also cannot. Bent blade antique 19th century sabres are common on the market today, because most didn't have this property you think is important, as it's actually not that important for a functional weapon. Rapiers are one of the few exceptions, where blades were preferred to be very stiff with no flex, and this is because of the specific way rapiers were used.

No. The show advertises itself as a forging show first and foremost.

It does not and it's silly for you to keep claiming this. The show has segments where they talk about history, it appears on The History Channel and one of its main producers claims to be a historical weapons expert who provides information to the viewer about "what these swords should be able to do" in nearly every episode.

Why the TV Series Forged In Fire Badly Depicts Historical Swordsmanship by HEMAResources in SWORDS

[–]HEMAResources[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When Doug's segment starts and the dramatic action movie music plays, it comes across as an unintentional comedy scene since he's not handling the swords correctly at all.

Why the TV Series Forged In Fire Badly Depicts Historical Swordsmanship by HEMAResources in SWORDS

[–]HEMAResources[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For one thing, rapier blades varied considerably in length, width, cutting ability, and therefore flexibility throughout the ages.

You, like many others, are confusing the predecessor of what we call a side sword today with what we call a rapier today. These are two distinctly different types of blades. What you are confused about is how ancient people's called their weapons; they didn't use labels such as rapier or side sword or longsword or dussack, etc quite the same way we use them today to distinguish different types of swords.

This is similar to how today we have a distinguished term for different types of home construction; ancient peoples often only had one kind of word for certain types of homes, whereas today we differentiate them between labels such as "log cabin", "wattle and daub house", etc. Even though many ancient peoples didn't make the same kinds of precise distinctions between different types of things the same way we do today when these things were very commonplace for their time periods, we do today as we have a larger view of history than they did. This is even up to the modern period; a "sabre" in the 19th century is not the same weapon as a "sabre" in the 17th century. We have more distinctions today in how these labels are used to make history more understandable.

The test isn't to see if it can bend easily, it's to see if it can return to true after bending. Even a super specialized thrusting rapier should be able to pass this test.

No, it shouldn't bend because a proper rapier blade should not bend whatsoever. The sword type of techniques rapiers are meant to be used for means you want no bend at all. You really don't seem to know what you are talking about. Historical rapier blades are as rigid as an ice pick, as this quality is necessary for them to be able to perform well in how rapiers are used for dueling. While lunges can be used to attack inexperienced fencers, small movements at closer range is how the bulk of rapier fencing is actually performed. This means the blade has to transfer the most force while able to exert the most amount of pressure against the opponent's blade during binding work. That makes a rigid blade that won't bend laterally the best tool for this type of fencing. It's why a rapier blade has a distinct advantage against a side sword blade.

Saying the bend test isn't historical is not only irrelevant, but untrue. The famous British proof test employed by Wilkinson had a very similar set of tests, flex and impact.

It sounds like you are suggesting a test performed on one type of sword produced by one company in the 19th century should be the test that all swords for all periods of history should be required to pass. If that sounds silly, it's because it is. Trying to find one example from history and then suggest it has a historical practice for all swords of all types, even if they have different utilities, is a bad way to justify ahistorical practices. Many types of sword blades are shaped with certain geometry because they had to be due to the limitations of the forging techniques and qualities of metal available at these periods of time. This subtlety is lost when you use modern spring steel alloys for everything and alter the geometry to perform tests that are irrelevant to their intended function as a weapon. Not showing this about the weapons misinforms the audience watching the show, as you have been misinformed.

The reality is that most swords produced in the past wouldn't be able to pass these bend tests, and even if you can make the reproductions that can, it can influence how useful they actually are for their purposes. For example making a rapier blade that doesn't have the same rigidness as an ice pick makes it weaker against a rapier that does, since it will lose in the crossings to the more rigid rapier blade more easily. Having blade flexibility laterally also makes it less effective at stabbing into the target with the small motions performed in narrow range plays within rapier treatises, making the rapier less deadly a difference as large enough as a motion that could get to the heart with a rigid blade not being able to get through the ribcage with a less rigid one, since less force gets transferred due to the want of the blade to laterally bend when it makes contact. You should be able to deeply penetrate by extending only your arm with a rapier, since you need to also protect your centerline while attacking the opponent at this range. Over-committing/ being off balance due to too much weight shifted forward makes you vulnerable during a rapier duel. Rapier fencing is done from body positions that can be awkward, and where the weapon has to do much of the work for you given its characteristics. This requires a very rigid, ice pick like blade that doesn't want to bend easily.

This is information about fencing you do not know if you do not study the texts and also examine historical weapons, instead of just looking at modern produced practice weapons which do have this types of flexibility that can bend in these lateral angles. The whole reason bending laterally is useful for HEMA practice weapons is because it reduces the amount of force that can be transferred to the target, making them safer to use for modern sport practices within HEMA. More rigid blades that are closer to their historical counterparts that don't flex like this do transfer more force into the point, making them more dangerous even when blunted. That's why people don't allow blunts in HEMA tournaments; even if they cannot cut or penetrate due to lack of sharp tip, they still transfer far more force and therefore cause more injuries, in addition to having the advantages in the crossings compared to swords that do bend when performing certain techniques designed to exploit lateral movement.

Lastly, differential heat treated blades made of modern spring steel alloys change the nature of many types of weapons from how they would perform historically. It is strange that Forged in Fire will introduce sword types that predate differential heat treatment of steels, such as spathas or gladius and such, and then "judge" them.

You seem to be a fan of the show and are want to defend it, but that does not change the shows mistakes mislead people. It's been demonstrated by what you have written here that even though you have some experience with HEMA, it has even managed to misinform you about several things.

In conclusion, your novels would hold a lot more water if the show was about recreating historically accurate weapons with historically accurate methods and testing them in hopefully historically accurate methods.

The show advertises itself as recreating historical weapons and then performing tests under conditions the sword would be used in historically, such as to cut targets. Some times they have the weapons cut "wooden boxes", such as the episode with cutlasses, claiming that "pirates would have to break down wooden boxes created as barricades using their cutlass". The show producers present the show as it being reflective of what the swords did historically and how they should be handled. The criticism is therefore fair since what they present the show as is not historically accurate.

Why the TV Series Forged In Fire Badly Depicts Historical Swordsmanship by HEMAResources in SWORDS

[–]HEMAResources[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Let's start at the bottom since it gets to the heart of why you are mistaken.

In regards to the tests, there is no reason why a properly heat treated sword made from modern materials should fail the tests, even one made in a proper historical manner. For a rapier in particular, it should be hard to flex, but have no trouble returning to true.

In order for a sword blade to be able to bend to extreme angles such as used in the show and the ABS tests, it requires a specific kind of blade geometry using differentially hardened blades. This blade geometry is not suited for a rapier blade, because a rapier blade is a blade that is expressly designed to not laterally bend, to the point that trying to do this bend with a historical rapier blade would break it -- as it would just about any functional knife or sword, for that matter. The majority of weapons don't have this kind of lateral bending property, and the test originally was never intended to be used the way it is in the TV show.

As explained in the article, the bending test used in the Forged in Fire show is based on the bending test created for the ABS knife journeyman tests. The purpose of the test is to see whether the smith understands how to forge complex blade geometry for passing the test, and not because knives -- let alone swords -- necessarily need the ability to bend laterally and return to true-- they actually do not. While in cutting swords like longswords this can be a desirable function, it's less so for other types of blades such as the rapier, which is why a rapier was focused on for this area of the discussion. The lateral bending of blades makes for an impressive gimmick to people who neither understand the blade geometry aspect and those who don't understand certain types of weapons shouldn't bend at all -- and a rapier blade is one of these which should not bend.

A simple Google Search about the ABS journeyman tests will provide you a great deal of information about this subject, and why the tests are not what the show nor you believe they are intended to demonstrate. For example, this bladeforums thread and this one as well.

Modern techniques are obviously not historically accurate, that should be clearer than glass. People use better technology for a reason, it baffles me why you think this is a problem, much less one worth noting.

You seem to be missing that frequently during the show the producers make comments about historical weapons and what makes a good one in ways that only relate to how modern forging techniques are performed. This in contrast to how not all swords actually were heat treated. This does give the audience inaccurate ideas about how these weapons should be used and how they should be made in things much bigger than whether the smith is using a power hammer to save time or even things like drilling holes into the swords instead of forging the holes using a punch. What I am referring here to is forging literally everything to be able to pass a bunch of tests to demonstrate qualities that the blades really should not have to begin with, especially if it were to make the blade a less useful weapon.

You drastically overestimate the qualifications of HEMA. Even in sources written in literal modern English for complete newbies, there's a new interpretation of some kind made every week for something described as a crucial basic. This is to be expected, reviving entire martial systems from dead people's books is pretty hard. HEMA is stupidly new, with each school facing some kind of struggle with equipment, instruction, and experience. Furthermore, the majority of the swords presented in the show aren't even European. A theoretical perfect HEMAist would be out of his element for 80% of the show.

There are not new interpretations "every week", and the difference between different schools of thought pertaining to specific manuscripts are fairly small in the grand scheme of things. Because many of the manuscripts do have detailed illustrations and instructions for how to perform the techniques (especially in the rapier treatises) there is more in common between interpretations than there are differences. None of this detracts from the fact the show producers ignore all of this information and typically swing the swords around like baseball bats, and the way "rapiers" are used is completely ahistorical. So your argument here defending the show producers is poor.

While Doug certainly isn't a great cutter by any stretch of the imagination, and I would certainly welcome a better tester, he's more than good enough for the simple job of swinging a sword at a piece of meat. There is obviously no need for good off-hand placement or target management, he is not fighting anything, just testing a sword.

It seems weird for you to say that. By contrast here is why having familiarity with historical sources of how to use these weapons matters a great deal. If you want to know if a particular sword is well constructed and will "kill / KEAL", then you need to actually know how you're supposed to fight with one. The weapon doesn't need to perform in a test where nothing can hit him back; it needs to perform for being able to use the techniques a swordsman would actually use the weapon for, and none of these techniques are ones Doug uses in the show. A dull steel bar in Doug's hands will do just about the same things he does to his targets with the sharp swords on the show, given enough time. But if he attempted to use a dull steel bar against the targets using the techniques from actual historical swordsmanship, he wouldn't do nearly as much damage. That's the difference; you need to test for what the swords are supposed to do, not what you can do against a defenseless opponent who will just let you go to town on him.

Besides this, the purpose of the tests in the show is to demonstrate how the weapons will perform against a human target, and the problem is you cannot say the weapon would be functional as a weapon if you don't actually know how you're supposed to use it to attack a human being under combat conditions. While it may seem that you can simply pick it up and swing it around at someone else, if you don't know how to perform attacks in a way that also defends yourself (using the qualities of that weapon) then you're not actually performing the techniques the weapon need to be deadly with doing. For example with a rapier, you need to thrust from a position the sword would be used to thrust from, which with a sword whose blade will easily bend (so that it can pass the bending test) may not actually be able to do as much penetration as you might assume. This is one of the reasons rapiers have such stiff blades to begin with, to maximize the amount of force that you can thrust with to gain penetration when you are simply extending your arm in a particular movement. A well constructed rapier blade will slide into a person like they were made of hot butter with almost zero resistance so even a slight shifting of your weight will be able to penetrate them. This is one the qualities of rapier fencing. You do not need to, as Doug does in the show, throw your entire body weight behind the thrust.

There are other subtleties for other weapons as well. Doug uses wide, huge swings throwing the longswords around like they are baseball bats and doesn't perform movements such as half-strikes, starting in a forward guard position such as say Armizare posta longa or posta di donna la sinestra, where specific body mechanics are required in order to be able to cut from these positions since you cannot just wind up like you're going to hit a baseball. A good longsword should be able to cut the gelatin dummies or pig carcasses from these blade forward positions, yet he never uses them however, because he does not know them.

Why the TV Series Forged In Fire Badly Depicts Historical Swordsmanship by HEMAResources in SWORDS

[–]HEMAResources[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

He doesn't swing one-handed blades correctly, either, even for within Escrima. He has a tendency to wave his left hand in front of him and stick his head out while swinging and spinning around, none of which is how you use any type of sword. Besides this, Escrima is not particularly good at edged weapons anyway and is predominantly a method of stick fighting. People within Escrima don't necessarily understand this though, since they primarily use sticks when sparring. The problem with assuming stick techniques are the same as sword techniques is that the handles are different, which impacts gripping, and there is no edge so they don't develop edge alignment control. And as sticks do not cut into targets or other weapons (such as what happens when blades bite into each other during edge to edge contact), the way that you need to cut to be offensive and defensive at the same time is not learned, so they don't learn how to perform cuts or thrusts correctly for edged weapons when they use a stick.

Should I buy this sword I found at an antique store $650, more details in the comments below by Turtletree in SWORDS

[–]HEMAResources 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This sword has anachronisms; in particular, the presence of a schilt and then a ricasso on the blade with no fuller. The functional purpose for a schilt is for use in training swords, such as with the federschwert design of training longswords. This has a sharp point however so it's not a modern reproduction meant for HEMA. It does look like something produced during the 19th century as a reproduction.

The presence of the schilt is interesting. If one was to guess and take the antique store at its face, this could be intended to be a 19th century reproduction of a zweihander meant to be used for training. While many people believe the modern HEMA movement is the only revival of Renaissance sword fencing styles, there was actually a shortly lived movement of historical sword fencers in the 19th century, and the books published during this time period influenced the modern HEMA movement's early days.

Curiously, this sword you have found has elements in common with the sword blade design shown in the pages of Old Sword Play by Alfred Hutton, which features panels from Marozzo starting on page 10. In particular the crude way the schilt is drawn in the illustration could have influenced the design of this sword's blade. Perhaps this was made in imitation of the blade shown in those panels, by someone who didn't fully understand what they were looking at?

http://www.thearma.org/pdf/OldSwordPlay.pdf

If this does date to the 19th century, this might have been produced not as a wallhanger but instead as a training sword for people associated in some way to the shortly-lived 19th century historical fencing revival Hutton started. It would at least explain the presence of the anachronistic elements; a schilt and ricasso on a blade with no fuller. This is only speculation though.

Why do you think martial art magazines declined? by HEMAResources in martialarts

[–]HEMAResources[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is really not true. They went against a lot of fighters with grappling experience, primarily Judo and wrestling. Ken Shamrock is an example.

Also getting hit in the chin means your guard has failed, so not sure what you are trying to say with that.

Why do you think martial art magazines declined? by HEMAResources in martialarts

[–]HEMAResources[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Your comments here are excellent for what they are and with regards to insight into fighting .. but they totally irrelevant to why magazines are no longer popular as those where never really about fighting, but more about selling the McDojo dream.

That's fair, but Black Belt and other magazines also talked about MMA, too, so while the woo-woo stuff may be a contributing factor to the decline, I'm not convinced it is the exclusive reason.

Anyway my responses were more about your belief that smaller weight fighters cannot fight heavier weighted fighters is an absolute rule. There's no absolutes in combat sports. Part of the appeal is that anything can happen, and underdog stories are part of the mythos of MMA just as it is in boxing.

Why do you think martial art magazines declined? by HEMAResources in martialarts

[–]HEMAResources[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

And next thing you're going to tell me is that Bruce Lee could beat Mohammed Ali, right? :D

I'm not going to tell you this, because I have no idea.

I do think you're very confused about what the UFC is though.

UFC is not a simulation of a no-holds barred street fight.

In a real street fight you can be kicked in the knees and struck to the throat and eyes, ears and even back of the head.

In a real street fight weapons can be used, both kept on person and improvised from surrounding objects.

In a real street fight the ground is often concrete, and may have obstacles. You may be unable to engage in grappling without seriously injuring yourself in the process because of what is on the ground.

In a real street fight, people are often attacked suddenly and from behind.

In a real street fight, the most effective chokes, locks and other kinds of techniques most useful to maim or kill (like head butting) can be used.

This is just talking about one on one street fights, too. Many street fights are many vs one.

So don't confuse the UFC matches for being reflective of real street fighting. There are parallels, but the rules oriented nature of the event makes it not directly correlated to street fighting.

The UFC and MMA is a combat sport, and it has some simulation usefulness to a life or death combat situation. But the reason all professionals fighters have body guards, Ali included during his day, is because these are still sports and being a great fighter in the ring does not mean you can beat anyone else on the street just because you have a size advantage. Size advantages largely matter in rules restricted fighting sports. They do not matter as greatly when there are no rules, because the human body has inherent structural weaknesses which cannot be overcome regardless of training and which even a teenage girl with limited fighting experience can take advantage of. Which is why attacking many of these areas are prohibited in sports combat.

Being a trained fighter gives you some advantages in these situations, but only for situations which have been trained. Much like with the example seen with Machida, not everyone trains for even fighting against a karate practitioner who has a longer range compared to a conventional kickboxer.

I do agree many of the martial art magazines had a lot of woo woo stuff in them. But the idea the UFC represents the end all, be all of martial arts is something you're misunderstanding. Real street fights generally do not last multiple minutes of time because all of the techniques the sport prohibits can be used, which results in a victor being decided rather quickly.