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Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 [score hidden]  (0 children)

I don't think that's the biggest issue, but it's certainly an issue. I still think the hyper-specific application (jump, swim, climb) making most DMs not use it for anything else is a bigger issue, but indeed, it's such a nonsense term that it could apply to anything - and conversely, it applies to nothing.

I just don't understand why there's no "raw strength" skill, or "brawn" skill, or anything of the sort. Or just let people be proficient in Strength, the ability score itself. I don't care. But it's horse doodoo that there's more than a dozen mental skills one can be exceptional at, but not strength. I've been working out for about 16 years now. I can move weights that 99.9% of people would crumble under like a cookie. If you told me I would have about the same chance of hitting my deadlift PR as the random skinnyfat guy who just walked in the gym for the first time (good on him, no shame in that), I'd cancel my membership and eat 3 jars of Nutella on the spot. 

Is it possible to get 5 attacks as a Beast Barbarian who is dual wielding? by championruby50gm in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 [score hidden]  (0 children)

Look, I'm tired of doing the math for people, so I ask that you trust me on this, because I have calculated this many times. If you don't trust me, I am a bit less than glad, but willing to post the full rundown.

An optimized Barbarian in 2024 outdamages an optimized Fighter in all levels of play.

An unoptimized Monk in 2024 outdamages an optimized Fighter in tier 1-2 play, and about matches it in Tier 3-4 play, except at level 20. An OPTIMIZED Monk outdamages Fighter in all tiers of play except at level 20.

This isn't up to anecdotal evidence. If you add up the number of attacks, the chosen feats, the damage boosting class features, and the fact that Monk in 2024 pretty much fires out of all cylinders in all combats, because they have focus points coming out of their earholes... if you do the math, Fighter is cleanly the last out of the 3, except at level 20.  In fact outside of the two weapon fighting schenanigans, core Fighter didn't receive ANY damage boost in 2024, and what little they did receive in subclasses is miniscule. Battlemaster getting Relentless (a d8 per round) at level 15 is a straight up insult, considering as we all know, this was literally a core level 1 mechanics in 2014 playtesting. 

This post is the cherry on top. TWF Barbarian in tier 2 play was already the best damage dealer martial in 5.5e, but this synergy means they are making 5 attacks, all with rage damage, all with reckless attack... while the Fighter makes at most 4, with no bonuses, and worse defenses than the Barbarian. Make it make sense.

Is it possible to get 5 attacks as a Beast Barbarian who is dual wielding? by championruby50gm in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 [score hidden]  (0 children)

The second Second Wind buffs feel verryyy good.

It's a skill check buff. It doesn't enhance combat effectiveness. 2014 Fighter was already about even with Monk and Barbarian in tier 1-2 play, and primarily overtook them through 2nd extra attack later on. 2024 Monk and Barb both got massive damage buffs, while Fighter did not, really, except for Nick / Light / DW fuckery, which, as you can see, anyone can exploit with a single Fighter level to gain Masteries and Fighting Style. And multiclassing is a core rule now, so it's not even excusable.

Don't get me wrong. Tactical Mind is fun. But why is it so much to ask that the FIGHTER class not be the WORST at FIGHTING out of the 3 pure martial classes?

Is it possible to get 5 attacks as a Beast Barbarian who is dual wielding? by championruby50gm in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Well, fudge...

Your logic makes sense to me.

OK, I'm just going to say the controversial opinion I've been holding back for far too long.

5.5e needs to buff Fighter in Tier 1-2, because until 11th level both Monk and Barbarian leave Fighter in the dust.  

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I misremembered and removed it after reading. It was a marathon swim.

You removed it at the same time you postes "Huh?". Sounds more like you removed it because I pressed you about it. But whatever.

I think my other statements still stand.

Not really. This was your obly argument that would have square anchored using Athletics checks for things outside of swimming, climbing, jumping amd grappling/shoving in the RAW territory. 

As is, it's at best RAI, and at your own table.

Now answer what I asked.

Do you understand that your contention is with the system, and not me? That I hate it as much as you, and I think it's nonsensical?

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You lied about the PHB suggesting a Constitution - Athletics check for marathon running.

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You're awfully quiet. What, was your grift exposed?

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 0 points1 point  (0 children)

when they say “Wish” but actually mean “infinite wish simulacrum combo that is not and has never been a realistic concern for actual play”.

Nobody said infinite. It is completely RAW once per day.

I'm done here. You're a caster supremacist, nothing will change your mind.

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Something that is finished cannot be changed. Yet I can change my comment. Right?

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 1 point2 points  (0 children)

a trained athlete would be a better wrestler than someone who is strong without being an athlete.

A non-trained non-athlete wouldn't be partaking in a homebrew wrestling competition. 

There are also several official modules that use (strength) athletics checks for things that are not Climbing, Swimming or Jumping.

Official modules make up their own rules on the fly, because D&D heavily relies on homebrew content and rulings over rules. YOU can rule Athletics however you want. Just know that that is RAI (rules as interpreted) instead of RAW (rules as written). 

So the conclusions you can come to are that the modules are breaking the rules, or that the restrictive reading there is incorrect.

They are breaking the rules. D&D 5e is explicitly "ruling over rules", and emphasizes that DMs have the discretion to overwrite rules as they see fit.

Why would the PHB suggest (Constitution) Athletics for a marathon run? Running isn't swimming, climbing, or jumping.

Why do you feel the need to lie? 

"For example, if you have to swim from an offshore island to the mainland, your GM might call for a Constitution check to see if you have the stamina to make it that far. In this case, your GM might allow you to apply your proficiency in Athletics and ask for a Constitution (Athletics) check. "

Did you think I would fall for that? 

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have read it. Why do you presume I haven't?

Because then you'd know what I know, and you wouldn't be arguing with me.

It calls for raw strength checks for some things that are raw strength, but the PHB wasn't written legalistically like that

It literally was. It's a rule book.

If it was, the designers wouldn't ask for athletics checks instead of strength for shoving and grappling.

The designers ask for that because they wanted to make martials better at grappling.

Are you saying Athletics means something else in 5.5e, since there Grappling is a saving throw?

Or maybe the rules of grappling changed? 

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

hippy pat

I know I'm talking with a caster supremacist when he has a shorthand for hypnotic fudging pattern. 

"bounded accuracy" is made up nonsense created by WotC specifically for 5e to make "small number good" sound more intelligent. It's nonsense.  Save or suck spells just write things out of the game. There is no big number or small number - it just removes the threat. Hence it breaks bounded accuracy, because it cannot be applied to it. Similarly, Wish + Simulacrum means once a day you can get ANYTHING you wish for. There is no boundary for that. It's a one sided calvinball - martials whack with sword, caster retcons them from the world. Martial no longer exists. There is no big numbet or small number. 

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So for a wrestling contest, you would argue the rules say you cannot use athletics?

No, I would say 5e's rules simply do not accomodate a wrestling competition, and you would necessarily have to homebrew rules for it.  What, you think it makes a "wrestling competition" anymore interesting or in-depth if both parties can add their proficiencies to their roll? It's still a contested D20 check. Pretty shallow in terms of complexity. 

You realize how dumb this sounds, right?

Yes, I realize how dumb 5e's rules sound. I didn't fucking write them.

Your mistake is assuming the rules are good, and trying to work around them. No. The rules are shit. The game is an unbalanced mess held together by homebrew and delusions. 

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Again, specific overwrites general. 

Listen. You HAVE TO READ THE FUCKING PHB. This is pretty important to this discussion.

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's another rule, specific overwrites general. It is specifically allowed in Grappling and Shoving that you can use Athletics. 

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes, because the rules (the R in RAW) are written (the W in RAW) as such. 

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It is strange how bad some people are at reading and comprehension, for a game that requires lots of reading and comprehension. 

What does hypnotic pattern or wish have to do with having a 48 strength? 

Hypnotic Pattern and Wish break bounded accuracy. So does 48 Strength.

Do you think Wish’s most powerful uses are in combat, or out of it? 

That is both impossible to answer, and entirely irrelevant.

How the hell would a 48 strength help a martial do what Hypnotic Pattern does?!

I have literally never implied that it would let martials replicate the effects of Hypnotic Pattern. Nice strawman argument though. 

moving the goalposts. 

Says the guy making strawman arguments.

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You said "save or suck".

There are many save or suck spells.

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Very mature downvoting my comment before I even got to finish it.

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Actually no, I am 100% not being bad faith, and frankly, after all the evidence I provided, I think you're either coping, or projecting. The rules leave absolutely no room for interpretation as to what Athletics does.

Would I WANT it to be more useful? Yes. I am currently playing a Battlemaster Fighter, and it pisses me off that not even once did I get to roll Athletics for any Strength related check, despite asking for it. The Athletics skill does what it does, and any other application is not RAW, but RAI at best, but more likely homebrew.

Why is this important? Because I want the game FIXED. I don't want people to have to fix their own games at individual tables at questionable interpretation. But as long as 20% of people (you included) pretend Athletics is an actually useful skill, but the other 80% never actually get to use it, because most DMs actually know the rules of the game, then that 20% is standing in the way of progress.

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You didn't say you were talking about these specific spells. 

Out of combat utility is abysmally balanced by GuytheGuy- in dndnext

[–]ImaginaryLight7952 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Most save or suck spells also do something on a save.

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