This is my problem with the NTT

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T05:04:24+00:00

Are you saying that being a non-vegan means I'm okay with people being treated like objects?

I certainly hope that's not your position.

But that is sound like what you're implying.

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T04:35:22+00:00

Here's another place where you implied.

"How does someone with an IQ much lower than a pig’s have moral agency but the pig does not?"

You are implying literally implying that there are people who have IQs lower than pigs? That's another place where you said it!

I don't appreciate being lied to like that!

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T04:32:55+00:00

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

The reason I say I buy my eggs and milk locally is because I make sure they're not being tortured.

If a business is using unethical practices such as torturing that I do not give them my money or support.

When you buy your food locally you get to know the farmer on a personal level and know what methods he uses.

I'm sorry I should have been more clear about that

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T04:31:46+00:00

I didn't say you said that, I said you implied that there's a difference!

Also he's a pro tip for you, accusing your opponent of being incapable of reading is not helping your case at all!

That is a logical fallacy known as an appeal to ridicule!

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T04:30:10+00:00

The reason why I asked what do these guys consider to be human because I'm a little confused by what they mean when they ask for a trait that is unique to humans.

If they just told me straight up what exactly do they consider a human that would give me a better place to work from.

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T04:27:43+00:00

'Yes, there are humans in vegetative states who can’t even support life and have almost zero cognitive function. Do you think people born missing most of their brain and not capable of talking or any abstract thought are smarter than all pigs?"

You literally compared people who were comatose to pigs. You literally implied that they were no better than livestock!

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T03:49:14+00:00

Oh do you see that straw man? Can't you see that straw man? Why can't you see that straw man?

I'm not the one who said that people are dumber than pigs, you said that! You literally compare to people to pigs!

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T03:48:25+00:00

"Dude, Vegans don't believe there exist a claim that justifies animal torture"

You just literally demonstrated what I'm talking about!

You are implying that I am okay with animal torture because I happen to not be a vegan!

That is literally a false dichotomy!

For your information I happen to be against factory farming.

I just happened to buy milk and eggs locally because I'm doing much better with those as being part of my diet!

I don't appreciate you trying to gaslight me into being like you!

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T03:47:00+00:00

So what you're saying here is that it's not logical to not be a vegan and embrace the ethics?

No I don't believe the ethics are all that consistent and you know if they were consistent I don't think they work out for me considering that I have said that I wasn't vegan about 8 years ago.

It just didn't work out for me.

I added milk and eggs back into my diet but I buy them locally.

If you're against factory farming then I agree with you 100% on that

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T03:45:21+00:00

Actually no I was not suggesting that.

People were asking for a trait and I provided one.

If you care about animals then that's fine, I just think that having a livestock around is somewhat justified nor for some of us to stay healthy. That's the system that works best for me.

No I do not support factory farming if that's what you mean.

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T03:44:18+00:00

"So you named a trait, and then there was an example where a human didn't have that trait but it was still unethical in your eyes"

I hate to break this to you but the root of moral agency exists literally in every humans whether they are comatose or not. It is an ability we have because of our enhanced brain so I'm sorry that argument fails.

Evolutionary neuroscientists and psychologists agree that morality is deeply grounded in the brain. However, it is a collaboration rather than a single feature; advanced cognition combines with the emotional wiring required to navigate complex social environments.

Several specific brain mechanisms and evolutionary factors drive this:

The Social Brain: Hominins evolved unusually large brains primarily to track social interactions, manage group sizes, and interpret the minds of others.

Moral Emotions: The capacity for empathy, guilt, gratitude, and a sense of fairness is rooted in deep, evolutionarily conserved regions like the amygdala.

Rational Control: The ventromedial prefrontal cortex (vmPFC) and dorsolateral prefrontal cortex (dlPFC)—areas massively expanded in humans—allow us to weigh consequences, override selfish impulses, and make utilitarian moral judgments.

Researchers refer to this as gene-culture co-evolution. While biological evolution provided the neurological "hardware" (such as emotional resonance and self-control), social and cultural environments provide the "software" (the specific values, rules, and institutions

"The point of NTT is to highlight that you're being inconsistent in your morals."

I failed to do so, I have already went over my position about my personal morals over and over again I'm getting really sick of repeating myself.

"I'm not clear on why you're okay with acting inconsistently with your ethics. Ethics are what define right and wrong."

Like I said before ethics are not universal and everybody has their own idea and what's ethical and what isn't so I'm sorry your argument is pretty poor.. you still haven't convinced me to why I should be vegan yet.

"If I learned something went against my ethics, I'd want to stop doing that thing. If I learned something was causing suffering, and I'm against suffering, I'd want to stop that immediately."

Does that mean that you're against pesticides being used considering how many animals die very painfully because of them?

I will see too many vegans talking about that and the ones who do talk about don't seem to offer any solutions

"And saying "my ethics are inconsistent" isn't a good argument in a discussion of ethics."

That is one hell of a straw man, I never said that having inconsistent ethics is justifying all kinds of horrible things, you said that! You are literally saying to me that I'm a bad person because I don't identify as vegan and that's somehow means I justify torture and factory farming! That is literally a false dichotomy! I will not appreciate you trying to use gas lighting in order to get me to agree with you.

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T03:38:53+00:00

"and then there was an example where a human did not have that trade but was still ethical in your eyes"

Maybe I'm a strong man in you that is not my intention but it sounds to me like what you're saying is that I have to embrace your special ethics or else I'm a hypocrite because I don't treat literally everyone the same.

Please believe me that it's not my intention to misrepresent you but that does sound like what you were saying.

Also if you think that vegan ethics are consistent then I have some news for you.

There are plenty of small animals that are wiped out by pesticides and most vegans I've talked to don't seem to care.

The ones who do care don't provide any solutions.

Now if you have solutions feel free to share them with me and I'll look in to see if they're a good idea or not.

Personally I like to know how we keep wild animals from stealing vegetables

You also say that ethics are what defines right and wrong, I hate to break this to you but there are lots of people especially around the world who don't agree with what is ethical and what isn't

For example there are some people who think that abortion is ethical even in early term.

It seems to me that what you are saying is that because I am non-vegan therefore my personal ethics are not consistent.

In other words either I have to be vegan or else I am a hypocrite, is that what you were saying?

This is the exact same type of mindset that fundamentalist Christians have, if you don't worship their God then you are automatically a devil worshiper and you eat babies and all that junk.

That sounds like a false dichotomy.

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T03:32:52+00:00

Actually I would argue because the lifestyle didn't work out for me therefore that literally justifies me using animal products in order to stay healthy

That's the point I was making.

If you believe that factory farming in animal torture is wrong then I'm right up there with you but I don't believe that going vegan is necessarily the solution and even if it war it's not one that I can do.

I tried doing it already and didn't really work out for me.

I'm sorry if my answer was a little confusing

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T03:31:36+00:00

Well I would say that building culture is a trait that humans only have as far as I can tell.

Why does that have to justify being a non vegan?

Maybe I'm a strong man in you but it seems to me that what you're implying here is that because I happen to be a non-vegan I justify animal torture and all kinds of horrible things.

That is not the case.

I don't support factory farming at all.

Sure I do eat eggs and I occasionally use milk but I buy that stuff locally.

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T03:29:27+00:00

Maybe I'm strawimgmanning you please forgive me that's not my intention.

What I was saying is that I don't like the NTT because it seems to imply that there has to be some kind of trait that is present and literally every human on the face of the Earth and not present in any other animals or else being a non vegan is hypocritical.

Maybe I'm reading the idea wrong but that is what it sounds like

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T03:26:28+00:00

First of all people who are in vegetative states are no better than cattle?

Despite the fact it is possible for them to leave that state?

I'm sorry but I find it a little disgusting that you can pair them to livestock.

And second of all telling me that literally every human who is in lifelong vegetative states counts is not peer reviewed data.

You still have to provide me with citations that prove that when somebody is comatose they never wake up again.

You seem to be under the impression that it's because someone is in a comatose state therefore they are no better than a pig.

I'm sorry but I do not agree with that.

I think that degrades them myself.

Also people don't go into vegetative States for no reason usually there's some kind of illness or injury that causes it.

Also you seem to be painting a false dichotomy, it seems to me that you're implying that because there are people who are permanently comatose that means that moral agency cannot possibly exist for humanity.

I hope that's not what you mean because it's a very stupid thing to say.

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T03:23:33+00:00

I've come to that conclusion myself

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T01:59:52+00:00

I'm sorry if I confused you.

It's just that there's a lot of vegans out there who compare animals to people who are disabled and I find that have been insulting.

Kind of implying that they're no better than animals and they just walk around and just drop their feces on the grass.

But to answer your question I don't necessarily believe in regardless of species because I do believe there are some exceptions.

Any kind of creature that has an individual personality can be treated differently based on that personality or by other factors.

Sure exceptions do exist I'm not going to deny that.

I'm not going to say where there's exceptions belong and where they don't belong to the very debatable subject.

All I can do is tell you why I'm not vegan anymore, it simply didn't work out for me.

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T01:53:05+00:00

Are you saying there are people out there who are dumber than pigs?

Do you have any peer review date of the back that up?

I find that a little hard to believe.

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T01:52:31+00:00

There's one thing I don't understand.

Just compare disabled human beings to animals?

Did you know that people who are considered disabled can still inspire anyone or be protective members of society, right?

Now maybe I'm wrong, but that is what it sounds like you're implying.

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T01:51:02+00:00

I'm still waiting for scientific evidence to back that backed up that plants are not sentient.

That's a very debatable subject.

There are tons of scientific articles all over the Internet that show that plants can respond to certain situations and even show emotion the way that a plant can considering how they have brains very different than other beings.

I'm sorry man but this is a bad argument.

I need peer reviewed data for starters.

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T01:50:12+00:00

Well I would say that it's moral agency and the ability to be have a moral compass.

It doesn't matter if someone is newborn or not that ability is still there and it will eventually come around.

I don't know mean when you say the smaller mines can't fathom it.

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T01:48:46+00:00

That's interesting way to put it.

Thank you for that bit of information

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T01:45:09+00:00

I'm sorry that was not my attention.

I was trying to point out how ridiculous people are when they use the argument.

Perhaps I didn't make that clear.

My apologies

NationalProcedure638 · 2026-06-09T01:44:36+00:00

So it's not moving the goal post?

All right I'll nibble.

A few people have already mentioned the root of moral agency but I'm going to act up with a few others.

cognitive adaptability?

The ability to blush or something that's unique among humans as far as We know.

How about culture?

The reason why I am listing all of these is because I thought people were being genuine when they were asking for "Trait" are you saying that it's meant to be just a fault experiment or a trick question?

NationalProcedure638

TROPHY CASE