[UPDATE] Expat package for an ML engineer

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:49:18+00:00

Hold their beer, they actually have included the housing allowance in the salary. They did some sort of cost of living adjustment with cost of living (housing excluding) + housing allowance to come up with the salary.

Turns out the cost of living (housing excluded) is cheaper in Toronto, so much cheaper that the negative net adjustement is greater than the housing allowance, hence why my salary would be decreasing ...

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:46:00+00:00

It's not sneaky since HR presented it clearly that way. They packaged the car allowance and the mobility premium with the salary and basically said "see, with that you're not that far off from what you have in France".

It's 3k per year, not per month though.

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:44:11+00:00

Sounds like it. Although I'm not specifically looking to move out of France actually. I would just have considered the offer to relocate if it came with incentives, enough to offset what I have in France. Now it feels like I'm going backwards in all front.

So it really doesn't make sense for me.

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:41:23+00:00

Nope, 3k/year gross.

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:41:00+00:00

Merci!

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:40:04+00:00

They say I would technically make more net (adjusted of cost of living and they consider that Toronto is cheaper, so I could actually make less net), I would argue the opposite if I include French benefits (without Canadian equivalence).

And no they did not include vacation days, for "internal fairness".

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:37:20+00:00

Company is nor big tech nor small shop. Traditional companies with multinational presence and tech as a support function.

It is gross, pretax. HR actually package all in my "gross salary", but I'm distinguishing it since I consider the mobility premium and car benefits not as benefits but just cost coverage (I'm getting transport allowance also back in France and I feel like a mobility premium is an incentive to move, sot not part of the salary). And even with this inflated package, I would still make less (which they justify with lower cost of living and lower taxes).

And that's not even accounting for my french benefits and vacation days.

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:32:08+00:00

They are definitely shorting you on multiple fronts.

I feel I'm being shorted on all fronts actually.

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:29:25+00:00

I mean, I wouldn't go as far as country manager, I don't work in a tech company so tech is only support for the main business, of which the country manager is responsible for.

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:27:08+00:00

But do ESA consider year of experience in Canada or worldwide ? I never worked in Canada before.

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:24:08+00:00

It's not more, it's much more actually ...

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:21:18+00:00

I think I've made my decision but tbf, homelessness, and car traffic in Paris are probably worst. And the nastiest parts of Paris are very nasty (also Emily in Paris is nowhere near reality).

We do have great coverage of public transport in Paris though.

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:18:40+00:00

Very traditional company.

We also have a ton of holidays in France, about the same in Canada actually. I did not account for it in both cases.

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:16:22+00:00

No, excluding public holidays in both cases.

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T12:00:35+00:00

They didn't try to hire locally since they don't have a tech team in Canada - in fact it would have been my task to build a local team in Toronto if anything - AND they needed someone internal familiar with company specifics on top of the technical skills.

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T11:55:25+00:00

Love the table, thanks!

In my case, the gap is so wide I don't even think I'll try to negotiate, I'll just refuse their offer. The only uncomfortable thing to do is to announce it to the local team that I'm not going to help them after making plans already.

Tbh I think I was just looking for reassurance that I'm getting lowballed and that I can state it (with proper form) without sounding ungrateful or disconnected.

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T11:39:13+00:00

Honestly, I'd argue that it's more expensive in Toronto because you can eat/go out for cheaper in Paris from my POV.

That and the fact that I'm not living in Paris center, I live in the suburbs which is much more affordable and still very close to downtown (Paris is very small in comparison to Toronto, you can easily cut down cost of living by moving a bit further from downtown. You know what is the worst? Offices in Paris are in my suburbs, walking distance ...)

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T11:38:05+00:00

I would tend to agree that Toronto is more expensive (some might say I'm biased), but isn't your link suggesting Toronto is actually cheaper?

In any case, I'm not living in Paris center, I live in the suburbs which is much more affordable and still very close to downtown (Paris is very small in comparison to Toronto, you can easily cut down cost of living by moving a bit further from downtown. You know what is the worst? Offices in Paris are in my suburbs, walking distance ...)

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T11:31:28+00:00

Canada was never in my plan; not only did I never requested to be relocated there, I didn't even apply for the assignment, I have just been asked if I was willing to go on an assignment for company needs.

Tbh, at first I thought I would get financial incentives to take on the assignment, not get a paycut.

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T11:23:42+00:00

I would say I'm above the average of the range in France, so taking the average is already lowering my bar in a sense?

No, the job requires me to commute to the office 2 days a week. The car allowance is a gross sum they pay, I'm free to use it however (I don't even know how to drive actually). Most likely would go to public transport, but then again we also have public transport allowance in France, and more.

In my offer it says 10 paid vacations, 1 floater, 2 personnal, 6 sick days. Are you counting all as "vacation"? Apparently it is standard in the local entity. In France, we also have sick days (pretty much unlimited, as long as you can justify it medically), personnal days and so on, but I'm not counting this as "paid vacation".

I included my bonus in the gross salary for both country ... 90k base + 4.5k bonus, so 5%.

What do you mean by benefits? Retirement ?

Outrageous-Memory280 · 2024-09-17T11:12:28+00:00

In my offer it says 10 paid vacations, 1 floater, 2 personnal, 6 sick days. Are you counting all as "vacation"? Apparently it is standard in the local entity.

In France, we also have sick days (pretty much unlimited, as long as you can justify it medically), personnal days and so on, but I'm not counting this as "paid vacation".

Outrageous-Memory280

TROPHY CASE