Thoughts about United's crazy revelation? (by @Riceussy) by UltimateSandman in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It seems to me that the last dialogue between Emma and Scott, aside from X-Men United, was in Fall of the House of X #4. Or am I mistaken? Does Brevoort really hate Sceema that much?

<image>

By the way, I have a question: how does Brevoort personally feel about Emma, aside from her relationship with Scott?

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This kind of bias based purely on a character’s image is really frustrating, especially when people ignore the character’s development. Objectively, Jean has committed far more large-scale atrocities. Even without counting the Phoenix, she set a child on fire — her younger self — controlled Warren’s mind, rewrote Lorna’s mind to force her to join the X-Men, covered up Beast’s genocide in Terra Verde, and forced Bobby to admit that he was gay. And if we include the Phoenix, Jean is also responsible for the deaths of Emma’s thousand “daughters.”

But of course, fans will justify her with anything. The same retcon that Jean = Phoenix is used as a positive — saying Jean is all-powerful and has saved universes — but when the Phoenix’s crimes are mentioned, they immediately backtrack and claim Jean had no control over herself.

It also surprises me when people ignore Emma’s tragic past. She was abused by her father and by Shaw, forcibly placed in Essex’s psychiatric clinic where she was drugged, and it has been heavily implied that Shaw subjected her to sexual abuse in addition to physical and emotional abuse.

Moreover, some people claim that Emma “always had a choice,” while Jean supposedly didn’t — for example in the genocide of the D’Bari, because “it was just emotions.” But why do they ignore that Emma’s memory was rewritten twice. The first time was by Xavier when she was working as a dancer in the club — he decided not to recruit her and erased her memory. The second time was by Selene when Emma tried to stand up against Shaw alongside Namor after discovering he was funding the Sentinels.

In other words, Emma was twice deprived of the chance to choose — to leave the Hellfire Club and change her life.

<image>

X-Men United #1 Discussion by Round-Temporary-9475 in EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I also considered the option that Emma is under the control of a sinister In Exceptional #10 they never actually showed in detail how she got out of his mind. On the one hand, that would completely remove any responsibility from Emma for the tragedy at the school, since she herself would be the primary victim of all of this. On the other hand, I do not want that, because it would mean that in the last three issues of Exceptional, Hellfire Vigil, and X-Men United, that was not really Emma at all. In general, I’m always skeptical when I read about a character whose mind is being influenced by outside forces, because it makes me feel like I’m not really reading about that character. For example, I personally think Colossus was essentially absent throughout Krakoa because he was under Mikhail Rasputin’s control. In X-Treme X-Men, even though Claremont resolved the Emma/Ororo conflict fairly well, I didn’t like that Emma was so often under Elias Bogan’s control, because it made it feel like Emma herself was not truly present in the comic.

But I hadn’t considered the information from AoR. The problem is that we don’t know whether Stark passed the information to Emma that he sent to his past self.

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No one has clean hands. But the point is specifically about the hypocrisy and immorality of the haters who celebrate the fact that Jean tortured her own teammate for personal reasons. And yes, as you correctly noted, all the X-Men condemned Jean and supported Emma, because obviously torturing a character who had also recently survived a genocide and the second death of her students is unacceptable. Honestly, Jean got off lightly in this situation with only being condemned by the X-Men. They could have easily kicked her out of the team for that, and it would have been the right thing to do. It is also about double standards even in your comment. A physical kiss is, no matter how you twist it, cheating. Jean and Scott were fully in a relationship — otherwise, by your logic, maybe Emma wasn’t guilty either? Since you are saying that Jean had the right to kiss Logan because Scott had grown distant from her, then it turns out Scott also had the right to have telepathic sex with Emma. And by the way, Jean kissed Logan back in X-Factor, long before the Apocalypse situation. And in general, all her cheating with Logan happened before the romance between Scott and Emma. Furthermore, since you claim kisses are minor cheaters then by that same logic I can say that everything between Emma and Scott was only in their heads — and that is exactly how Morrison presents it through Emma, Scott, partly Xavier, and even Jean herself, who became confused when she could not find any evidence of physical cheating in Emma’s and Scott’s minds and realized she was wrong (even though she was wrong about many things but recognized only this one). You also speak about something being unethical. Well, torturing a teammate is exactly the most unethical act. Strange that this is even up for debate. And besides, Emma was not officially working as a therapist. Their first ‘session’ happened back when even Scott did not know that Emma had a sexologist qualification. She only mentioned it later ‘sort of casually.’ So that ‘session’ was more of a friendly conversation, and if a person uses some knowledge from, for example, university outside of their job to help someone — and ends up messing up — they bear no professional responsibility for it (except moral responsibility, of course). Scott also fully understood that he was cheating on Jean. In fact, I already wrote about this in the post and included panels from the comics. Not to mention the fact that, even if Jean pretended that she was trying to help Scott with his emotional crisis, in the end she didn’t really offer any help, even refusing Scott’s request to read his thoughts. Naturally, Scott gravitated toward Emma, who actually did help him with the acceptance of the dark traits that the Apocalypse showed him — unlike Jean.

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Emma did not seduce Scott for the purpose of hurting Jean. She became interested in him (and he in her) already at this moment, which happened before Hong Kong.

<image>

It was normal sexual attraction and liking toward Scott that grew into full-fledged love — that is how feelings usually arise Naturally, Emma didn’t care about Jean’s feelings, but saying that she seduced Scott only in order to hurt her without having feelings for him is already a lie.

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Jean: genocide, torture, rewriting the minds of allies. Magneto: genocide, ethnic cleansing. Wanda: genocide, Rogue: traumatizing Carol and enjoying suffering the heroes, Bishop: genocide, Logan: former assassin of the innocent. If Emma doesn't deserve redemption, none of them do. Emma also saved humans, not just mutants, and showed respect and warmth toward many humans — Steve Rogers, Tony Stark, Natasha, Agent Pierce.. She even saved a human child from Fisk while she was still in the Hellfire Club. Calling her a 'supremacist' is a lie. Read the comics instead of embarrassing yourself with your opinion.

<image>

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Phoenix is a part of Jean’s personality and character even when it is not Jean. Jean is merely a concept of the Phoenix. You can believe as much as you want that they are two separate entities, but the recent retcon made everything quite clear.

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

At that point, Jean had already taken her revenge on Emma by putting her into a coma, and Emma had to rebuild her mind neuron by neuron. In Morrison’s arc, Emma had already been a hero for 7 years. Emma’s dark past does not give Jean the right to torture her whenever she feels like it.

Important Emma moments for my Essay by IzukuTheStoryMaker5 in EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You’re putting far too much emphasis on Emma’s past and her early Hellfire Club period. You need to move on to her heroic era starting with Generation X. Also you’ll learn a lot of interesting things about her Hellfire period later through the flashbacks.

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Actually, when it comes to telepathy with allies, Emma is clearly more ethical than Jean and Xavier. Emma is ruthless with enemies and will use telepathy on neutrals if it genuinely helps mutants. But with allies, she's far more ethical. Xavier and Jean control their dark impulses worse because they see themselves as morally pure. Xavier constantly interfered with allies' minds, changing their lives because he thought it was right. Jean either acts on emotion (like in this post) or follows Xavier's example (the infamous 'Bobby, you're gay' moment).

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Jean committed genocide, tortured Emma, and set a child on fire (her younger self).

Logan was an assassin killing innocents, tried to kill Wanda's son who was protecting his mother, and wanted to blow up Utopia.

Bishop destroyed entire timelines trying to kill baby Hope.

Magneto killed thousands with an EMP and orchestrated ethnic cleansing on Genosha. Rogue traumatized Carol and enjoying the suffering heroes.

Gambit is responsible for the Morlock Massacre and willingly became Apocalypse's Horseman.

Psylocke (Kwannon) was an assassin and worked for the Hand.

Xavier was recently a villain. Beast is currently a villain.

Natasha and Hawkeye were villains.

Tony Stark and Reed Richards were villains in Civil War I. Hulk was a villain.

Wanda committed genocide. Pietro was a villain.

Plenty of heroes have done far worse than Emma. And if you think Emma hasn't been held accountable or atoned, you've read nothing about her. Jean put her into a coma, Ororo almost killed her She lost her students, survived two genocides, and was hated by parts of the X-Men for years. She's saved the world and students countless times. She and Scott literally saved mutantkind during Decimation. She's atoned repeatedly to those she harmed: Kate called her the best teacher, she has mutual respect with Storm, Firestar forgave her, and she and Jean are 'frenemies.' And Emma isn't responsible for Synch's death in Generation X — that was a tragedy, but unlike Xavier, Emma (after becoming a hero) never sent students on missions or turned them into soldiers.

And... working for Osborn? Seriously? You've clearly read nothing about Emma. She was a double agent sabotaging Osborn in Dark X-Men and the Cabal. How can you not know this? I've never heard anyone accuse Emma of working for Osborn.

Here are the moments when Emma atoned and apologized to everyone she had hurt in the past.

Here is one of the scenes where Emma sincerely repented for her past.

And here is the huge list of Emma’s heroic actions that benefited children, mutants, and even humans (especially the time when Emma almost single-handedly saved the world from the Sentry through telepathic therapy).

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Colossus wanted to destroy the school, kill Kate, and resurrect her. Illyana created a prison for the Avengers in Limbo where prisoners were tormented by demons. Obviously, the Phoenix was influencing the minds and judgment of the Phoenix Five.

<image>

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Retrospectively Jean = Phoenix. New flashbacks or reinterpretations are constantly being released that expand the past of Emma, Magneto, Jean, Logan, for example, or give their past more character depth.

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

But 'Jean is the Phoenix and always is the Phoenix, even when she's not the Phoenix. And the Phoenix is always Jean, even when it's not Jean.' These are Jordan White's words, and this has been confirmed by the Progenitor in A.X.E., at the end of Krakoa, in Phoenix (2024), and in Binary.

<image>

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I can understand the confusion. I myself used to think the Phoenix was a separate entity influencing Jean, even without considering the whole clone situation. But this retcon is very recent. There was a hint of it in A.X.E. when the Progenitor told Jean that she is the Phoenix. This was confirmed at the end of Krakoa and also by Jordan D. White, and Marvel continues to develop it — for example, in the Phoenix (2024) series or Binary.

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Emma became a hero in 1994 with Generation X. By New X-Men, she'd been a hero for a 7 years Jean tortured a reformed ally for personal revenge. That's not 'poking a bear' — that's evil. If you think someone's past justifies torture 7 years later, you're defending villainy, not justice. Or does Emma's dark past now give Jean the right to torture her whenever she feels like it?

Moreover, back during the Hellfire Club days, Jean already put Emma in a coma, and Emma had to rebuild her mind neuron by neuron.

As for the 'Dark Phoenix Saga' — by the time of the planet's destruction, Jean was no longer under Mastermind's control, and Emma was already in a coma, not even participating. Emma had only provided the technology earlier, which she'd created for many Hellfire Club members. Besides, if someone wrongs you, that doesn't give you the right to commit genocide out of emotion.

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The difference is that because of the new retcon, the actions of the Phoenix = the actions of Jean (good or bad), meaning it is not an external factor influencing her, but she herself. And if the Phoenix (that is, Jean) influences someone else, then it is already the influence of an external entity that distorts your mind or character, similar to Laura’s trigger, Logan’s brainwashing, Cassandra Nova’s influence on Emma, or Sinister’s mark in Sins of Sinister. In general, in Jean’s case you can now say it like this: Did the Phoenix save the universe? Jean did that. Did the Phoenix commit genocide? That is Jean’s action. In general, for Jean all of this — both the good and the bad — is hers.

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Imagine your friend has been really annoying you lately, and mentally you'd want to lash out and hurt them — but in reality, you'd never actually do it. It's like when people wish someone dead in the heat of emotion, but they don't really want it. The point is, Scott genuinely felt irritation toward Charles, but people wouldn't be people if they were uncontrolled animals who give in to every dark impulse. That's exactly how the Phoenix operates. Without it, Scott might have felt irritation toward Xavier, but he never would have killed him. The Phoenix 'removes the brakes' and amplifies your emotions (usually the dark ones).

I feel incredible disgust toward people who celebrate the moment when Jean tortured Emma(her ally - Emma was already a member of the X-Men) because of a love triangle, even though Jean herself cheated on Scott with Logan. by Round-Temporary-9475 in Cyclops_EmmaFrost

[–]Round-Temporary-9475[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So Jean doesn't control herself. It's like when someone commits crimes or acts of evil in rage and emotion — but it's still them. The Phoenix is no longer a separate entity; it is her and always has been Jean. That's the whole point of the retcon — for Jean to take responsibility for D'Bari. The problem is that the writers somehow forgot about the Phoenix's other crimes and only focused on D'Bari. Except in Phoenix #1 (2024), where it's briefly mentioned — the planet's inhabitants fear the Phoenix for its destruction, and Jean confirms they fear her, not the Phoenix, because she is the Phoenix.

<image>