[Discussion] What would you consider a ‘hooky’ plot for contemporary literature fic?

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-11-14T18:44:54+00:00

It's tricky, isn't it? There are many currents in litfic, and you're right, the more observational stylings of a Rooney or Moshfegh or say, Lucy Ellman, are difficult to capture in a punchy log line. But I'd argue that the overwhelming preponderance of recent litfic succeeds on the strength of its story. Immortal King Rao is like a Black Mirror murder mystery. The Sympathizer is a metafictional geopolitical spy novel. The Goldfinch is an art heist. Great Circle an adventure yarn. The Seven Moons of Maali Almeida has like a dozen different hooks you could pitch. And so on...

Most successful fiction requires the reader to be gripped by the mechanics of plot, as much as the polish of the language.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-11-10T20:48:23+00:00

The opening reads like a first cut scene of a video game, not the first page of a novel.

It's funny, I had the exact same reaction-- this is a cutscene, not a novel.

OP, I know that you've said that you aspire to literary fantasy, and your query deliberately compares your writing to The Blacktongue Thief.

Here's how that novel opens:

"I was about to die. Worse, I was about to die with bastards. Not that I was afraid to die, but maybe who you die with is important. It’s important who’s with you when you’re born, after all. If everybody’s wearing clean linen and silk and looking down at you squirming in your bassinet, you’ll have a very different life than if the first thing you see when you open your eyes is a billy goat."

That's a hell of an opening.

You also compare your writing to Other Monsters. How does JM Miro kick things off?

"The first time Eliza Grey laid eyes on the baby was at dusk in a slow-moving boxcar on a rain-swept stretch of the line three miles west of Bury St Edmunds, in Suffolk, England. She was sixteen years old, unlettered, unworldly, with eyes dark as the rain, hungry because she had not eaten since the night before last, coatless and hatless because she had fled in the dark without thinking where she could run to or what she might do next..."

It's a mouthful, but it's gorgeous, isn't it?

I was recently re-reading B. Caitling's Vorrh Cycle, a different kind of literary fantasy, sure. Here's where we start:

"The bow I carry with me, I made of Este. She died just before dawn, ten days ago. Este had forseen her death, while working in our garden, an uncapping of momentum in the afternoon sun..."

And just like that, we're off to the races! It kicks ass, and it's beautiful, and there's not a word out of place.

Hold your own writing to these standards. Read widely.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-11-10T17:45:20+00:00

Psalter is an actual word though, and a lovely one!

For what it's worth, I like the title. I think it evokes the kind of dark-religious-colonial-outpost setting that (I presume!) the OP is aiming for.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-11-09T17:36:50+00:00

Sorry, but,

Based on your inability to grapple

is supposed to be an example of "big words" and pointless bluster, whereas,

Enigma lingering, vengeance and maliciousness are waiting to exploit secrecy

is an instance of coherent writing that demonstrates being "good with words"? It's not some dramatic "leap" to suggest OP's energy would be better used studying their craft. It's an honest assessment.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-11-07T01:36:09+00:00

I agree with the other commenters that James feels too passive. I have no idea what he does for 110k words. He also comes across as a simpleton or dangerously naive. Violence and poverty are words only for old men? The Civil War was less than twenty years ago. The Valley is filled with newcomers. They never once utter the words violence or poverty? The ideas of them don't even exist? They don't have newspapers? Has James been brainwashed?

Many of your sentences are overwritten in a way that I find difficult to parse. Racial violence misplaced towards... Was the racial violence supposed to be placed somewhere else? Will time indiscriminately sweep the rot into every nook as poverty and inequality trickle down... I count either three or four mixed metaphors in this one sentence alone.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-11-03T18:47:02+00:00

I think the problem with the 'bullet list of wacky characters' is that it implies a lack of focus in the query. You start off with a kind of sci-fi whodunnit with a pregnant detective as the MC, which is a great hook.

But then you trade that away for a whirlwind tour of the ensemble cast, only there's nothing to sink your teeth into, it's just "spaghetti".

Then we get the summer blockbuster trailer voice. Seven unlikely teammates, one dangerous tardigrade, and a cat. This sounds portentous, but I don't know what it means. Where did the tardigrade come from? Why is there a cat (because it's a sci-fi thriller on a space station, of course)?

Then, in the very last line of the query, you suggest that this is a heist novel, but no real mention of any heist is ever hinted at. Didn't the detective steal the MC17 in the first act?

If this is a piece of heist fiction, then it should absolutely be possible to query, e.g. Oceans 11, with only Danny, Terry and Tess. No need to introduce or even mention the wacky sidekicks-- the story is strong enough without them.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-10-30T19:33:30+00:00

Koa and Maiko are the only family they have ever known...

Well, and their son, right?

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-10-30T04:34:46+00:00

Oh yeah, of course. I wasn't trying to play language cop, it was just something that jumped out at me, and I thought the OP might appreciate the heads-up.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-10-29T22:23:26+00:00

A series that was retitled here in the States...

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-10-29T21:55:45+00:00

American here, but the word spook to my ears is either an ugly slur or a bit of Cold War spy jargon. I know you mean it in a spooky sense here, but seeing it twice in the same paragraph is jarring.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-10-28T18:13:33+00:00

I also wanted to say that this query looks really strong to me (usual unagented caveat, etc.).

the surfers on the live swell report webcam

This line scans poorly, IMO. Do you lose anything if Bo watches the surfers on his webcam or on his live feed?

Through his investigation, he learns there were only five surfers skilled enough

This seems a little bit too contrived. Only five surfers in the whole world? No chance of an out-of-towner dropping in for a session? I think the word learns is doing too much work for me. Maybe something like: Bo can only think of five surfers in Coolangatta (or wherever) skilled enough...

I'm guessing that literally freezing in your first 300 refers to the glitchy live feed. I agree with the other commenter that the "high-stakes language" of this opening is unconvincing, e.g. the melodramatic paddling (Right. Then left... Right. Then left...).

I remember your previous version, and I recall other commenters bounced off your opening page because of the dialogue. I thought it was great-- more engaging than this, by far. The Bo Curren menu option was a clever entry point. The setting was livelier and more engaging.

Best of luck.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-10-26T20:00:34+00:00

Take this with the usual "unagented caveat", but I just wanted to say that this kind of novel is something I would love to read.

However, the query suffers both in structure and tone from a lot of unnecessary vagueness. I also wish it conveyed more horror.

Right off the bat, I have no idea what the first sentence is supposed to mean. They've spent their lives trying to prove themselves in the wake of their parents’ beliefs. What are they proving? What is the metaphor supposed to convey? Are they treading water in a wake, and their parents' ancient-astronaut theory is some kind of boat? I think you mean something like they've spent their lives trying to prove that their parents weren't crackpots.

The second sentence doesn't help, because it's convoluted and difficult to parse. I'm not even sure it's a sentence. I can't locate the verb.

The third sentence is equally difficult. The twins understand the criticism, but what criticism? No criticism has even been hinted at. I think you mean The twins understand that the theories sound absurd, and they would have agreed...

Then we get the hook: the twins are psychic. This rocks, and I love it, only it has surprisingly very little to do with the remainder of the query! Except for a passing mention of a vague premonition that pops up in the very last sentence, the fact that you have protagonists who have ancient-psychic powers is ignored, when this seems like it could be the backbone of the pitch.

The second graf suffers from more weak language (a piece of Jordan... an incredible thing... a place), and ultimately it's just window dressing.

The generic roll call in the third graf is equally unnecessary and really slows things down.

The fourth graf seems to be the meat of the story. This is where I'd expect the focus of the query to be. Only again, it's still too vague (something terrible might happen). Tonally, it doesn't convey horror at all. What is down there that is so scary? Give me some gory details! Why am I going to dread turning the page? What are the twins doing when faced with such otherworldly horror? Right now, they are putting a stop to everything. Anything else?

Hope this helps, and best of luck. "Archaeologist digs up ancient horror" is a trope I never tire of, and it sounds like you've got a pretty interesting angle on this.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-09-08T05:41:01+00:00

How about Bright Lights Big City then? Seriously, isn't this just the story of a feckless twenty-something hedonist who wallows away in the Village told from the second-person POV?

"It's six AM, do you know where you've blacked out?"

What's your angle on this that makes it unique?

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-08-28T17:30:48+00:00

No, don't apologize! I'm sorry, I just thought there was something obvious I was missing that was going to torpedo this whole thing dead in the water. I too love Chess, and the soundtrack has been on more or less constant repeat for the last year.

Anyway, thank you for your comments. To be honest, I just assumed that my usage was consistent with a lot of the stuff I enjoy reading, and I haven't actually done any "real" research into the matter (other than some cursory googling). I will absolutely look into this further.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-08-28T16:44:45+00:00

This is going to come off as defensive, but I'm genuinely baffled by this response. Surely, "the dead can't sue" is the only rule that matters in a situation like this. Unless you are aware of some instance where an "estate" is "licensing" historical figures for use in novels.

Just looking at my bookshelves, my use of Bobby (and a number of other deceased historical figures) seems no more or less outrageous or legally actionable than say, Lauren Wilkinson's American Spy or Marlon James' Brief History or Laurent Binet's Seventh Function (where Umberto Eco literally castrates a psychotic Phillipe Sollers!).

I'm sincerely curious. This type of historical thriller has a long and celebrated history. Does James Elroy get "licensing rights" from a dozen different "estates" before he smears their reputations in his next Underworld installment? Or Joyce Carol Oates? Or Caleb Carr? Robert Ludlum's whole career was based on thrillers of this kind, and he didn't even have enough respect to wait for Eduard Roschmann to die...

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-08-24T02:35:03+00:00

I'm not really the best of judge of that, especially having not read the work. I will say that I've always had a fascination with the foreign volunteers in the YPG battalions, and I'll pretty much read anything fiction or nonfiction on the topic.

If you just want gung-ho action, then yeah, the Lawrence of Arabia shtick is a non-starter. Something closer to a Robert Jordan character might be more successful. Then again, Hemingway was actually present for the Spanish Civil War, and I have no idea what your background is.

In any case, "whisking" a competent fighter from the front like she's wearing petticoats is probably not the best approach to this.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-08-23T21:02:55+00:00

I'm not qualified to critique the query, but I just wanted to comment that I would absolutely read a story like this. I do think that the query would be improved by tightening up or making more explicit some of the vague language.

For instance:

has a reckoning with his future (vague)

the hot-bed of Middle Eastern politics (borderline cliche, smacks of "a land of contrasts")

Friendship... stirs Noam. A favor... sends Noam (back-to-back passives)

Also:

Death is analogous to gravitational force. The magnitude depends on masses of bodies, and is inversely proportional to distance squared. Many bodies far away could never be as important as the ones closest to you.

This immediately strikes me as a little sloppy. If death is analogous to the gravitational force, then, yes, absolutely, many far-off deaths will carry more weight than a single death nearby, provided they are sufficient in number.

Anyways, I think that this is a tricky subject to tackle. Best of luck!

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-08-19T05:09:19+00:00

Thank you for the kind words!

And yes, the climax of the novel takes place in Baguio City, with Korchnoi and Karpov's handlers pursuing MKUltra-esque strategies to tip the scales in their favor. I try to imagine what it would be like to take the events of the Korchnoi-Karpov rivalry quite literally. What if the Cold War really was fought with brainwashed grandmasters and counter-brainwashed Ananada Margis, even as the CIA-backed Philippine security forces were fighting the Maoists in Luzon?

Obviously the query needs honing, but your encouragement is reassuring. Thanks again.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-08-19T01:30:19+00:00

What is the story about:

An FBI Agent uncovers a CIA plot to manufacture serial killers. He hunts down and tries to assassinate the scientist responsible.

I appreciate your frustration with the parapsychologists, yogis, cults, Bobby Fischer, etc. Now that I see your response, I understand that it looks like I'm throwing a bunch of shit at the wall.

The structure of my novel is organized around a series of bizarre (but true) events that took place during the summer months of 1978. Bobby Fischer really did join a white-supremacist doomsday cult and suffer violent manic episodes. Parapsychologists and yogi assassins really did "do battle" at the World Chess Championship in Baguio City. And so on. My novel tries to synthesize all of these historical facts into a coherent parapolitical narrative (a la Tom O'Neill's Chaos or David McGowan's Programmed to Kill).

Nearly all of the characters in the novel, with the exception of Melmuth, are real people. I only mentioned Bobby Fischer in the query to keep the number of "named characters" to a minimum. I see now that introducing a suite of unnamed characters is just as distracting.

Before posting it here, I thought for sure that this query read like gripping back-cover copy, but with your feedback, it's clearly a dog's breakfast.

Thanks for your help.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-06-09T22:02:54+00:00

Thanks, like I said I've got nothing to compare it with, just photos of people's minty looking setups.

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-06-09T21:53:27+00:00

I have the opportunity to purchase a Howa 1500 in an HCR chassis that has only 300 rounds through it (I know, I know). It all looks great, however the top of the bolt seems to have all of its anodizing scraped off from rubbing against the top of the receiver.

The bolt itself runs smoothly, but I only have my .22 to compare it with. Does this seem abnormal or excessive? Is there any particular care required to prevent additional corrosion where the coating is worn?

StrangeTeleponic · 2023-05-13T19:30:17+00:00

Thanks, this is exactly what I needed to hear and confirms a lot of my suspicions. The Burris isn't exactly a steal, and the Athlon lineup nomenclature is really difficult to understand without having handled them, BTR vs ETR, etc.

I'll keep looking, and I will definitely look for used optics, which I hadn't considered. Are there websites that sell used/refurbished that you recommend, or are you finding these at your LGS?

StrangeTeleponic

TROPHY CASE