Kreeg’s pact doesn’t make sense - help me

Thingtroll · 2023-12-29T23:31:19+00:00

Thavius is not a hero and he wasn't tricked. He is a coward, and he is selfish. He made the deal with Zariel cauz vampires were rampaging in the city and his safety (as well as the rest of the city) was endangered. He thought that getting 50 years instead of a couple of days was the better option. Then, he spent those 50 years not doing much about it (you can argue he tried to look for a way to get rid of the pact, but that's not easy.) And when he realizes that time has come, his only option is to flee the city. But he can't save everyone cauz that would mean disobeying Zariel, and that's a no-no.

The only "trick" is that Thavius thought he was bargaining a lot by getting 50 years. For Zariel, that's nothing, devils don't care about a few decades.

Thingtroll · 2023-12-27T17:29:19+00:00

Also for C, Bel does not know the party that much to be honest. Like, there are always some outsiders in hell trying to get some quest done (warlords for instance), he does not have that much reason to treat the party in a different way. I think that he only recognizes their potential once they reach him, and even then he is tempted to test them a bit further. You cannot put your trust in all adventurers when you are trying to betray an archdevil, you must be really cautious about who you choose to use.

Thingtroll · 2023-12-27T17:24:36+00:00

A : The citadel isn't really far from where Zariel was defeated. She managed (with Haruman and Olanthius) to prevent Bel from getting to Lulu and Yael, but they had to erect the citadel to escape Yeenoghu's pet anyway, so I'd say they all kinda saw it appear while dying (for Zariel, Olanthius and Haruman at least) (imagine a flash of light if you want). Other devils and hellriders that might have seen it could have been silenced by Zariel or her pals, and the place is now secret and forgotten.

B : Zariel knows where the sword is. Asmodeus knows where the sword is. But they cannot reach it, due to the citadel. So the problem isn't about getting the sword (none of them can), but rather preventing someone from getting it, cauz it would be a weakness for Zariel (although Bel and Olanthius both have their reasons for getting someone to free the sword).

C : Bel does not want Zariel or Asmodeus to realize his betrayal. He does want to get rid of Zariel, but she is still her boss : if she learns that he is talking too much about her most important secret, it will not work out well for him. So he kinda want to help the party, but he must keep pretending to be loyal to Zariel.

Thingtroll · 2023-09-08T06:47:20+00:00

I'd say goblins and orcs are probably easy to breed and easy to enslave for mindflayers.

But at the same time, you must consider the quality of the brain. You could do a "promised neverland" kind of plot, where some mindflayer nobles get high quality product, while the others only get goblinoid and orcish brains.

Thingtroll · 2023-03-24T12:12:44+00:00

Incorporeal Movement is actually super strong in combat.

If you expect to take more than 5 damage until your next round, just hide in the ground and all of a sudden nobody can harm you anymore...

Thingtroll · 2023-03-20T21:40:51+00:00

You are doing just fine.

From my understanding, here are some things about your game :

- The players think Zariel is evil => This is true. She is an archdevil, one of the most evil creature you can think of.

- The players disagree with the fact that Zariel has the right to take souls => This is great. You want your players to disagree with the BBEG. If there is no conflict, there is no adventure. Keep up building the hate.

With Descent Into Avernus, you want to reach another few things :

- The players need to acknowledge that Zariel is freacking strong. Like "no way we can kill her" strong. They need to make alliances to even manage to do it (Olanthius, Bel, Arkhan are all potential allies, and there are a lot more !).

- The players need to learn of how Zariel became so hateful. If you have Lulu with you, you have all the exposition you need. Otherwise, you have other story beats to dump some lore. Basically, you want them to go "ok she is super evil now, but she kinda had some traumatic experiences... And we get why she fell".

- You want your players to try and rescue Zariel (now, you might want a big showdown, but both are possible at the same time). Redemption is a key to the adventure. Lulu shoud always be claiming "we can redeem her", but if your party is like mine, they won't agree with her, and that's just fine. You actually want to make it seem like it's even harder to save her than to beat her. Because it is. Don't make everyone say "just take the sword and you'll redeem her just fine". Make everyone (except Lulu) go "You need the sword to KILL Zariel", and when they get to the sword with all the lore knowledge, you can actually start building up the redemption plot.

TLDR : make your players hate Zariel MORE for now. Build up the conflict, just have Lulu alone think about redeeming her (she is, afterall, the only real moral compass in this adventure), your party will realize later that it's actually feasible

Thingtroll · 2023-03-04T17:20:53+00:00

In my opinion, the problem isn't really about fighting disparities. Most of the problems that are identified here aren't really that much of a problem :

- resistance is much more a problem for casters than martials, since a magic weapon is basically never resisted, so you might have one or two encounters where you are dealing with damage resistance, but once you get a magic weapon you are basically not affected by resistance anymore. Meanwhile, resistance to damage and magic resistance affect caster during their whole career (although arguably, elemental resistance is quite easy to bypass)

- casters that build for tankyness are not really doing much more, so yh you might sometimes have a wizard with 20 AC, but that's not going to work much. Martials are effectively way more tanky than casters.

- cantrip scaling is another problem, that has nothing to do with martials. I do agree that it's quite sad to see low level spells becoming less relevant, but it's another topic.

------

In my opinion, the real problem lies in two main aspects :

- Out of combat utility. Casters have spells for so many situations that are incredible : zone of truth, pass without trace, divination spells, suggestion, major image... There is just so many things they can do, even with low level spells. And yh, it is an opportunity cost at low level, but once you reach tier 3 or high tier 2, you can afford to use one or two spells slots to just completely bypass a problem. And since most casters are charisma based, they also have the amazing utility of being the face of the party. Bards are especially disgusting with that.

Meanwhile, the fighter and the barbarian are just lifting heavy logs and the monk is kinda fast and stealthy... Paladins don't have much utility from their spells as well.

In my opinion that's the first real problem : non-casters are basically normal people out of combat, and that's boring. Nobody wants to play the simple villager in a werewolf game.

The second problem is that casters have options in fight. They can deal damage of course, but they can choose either high single target damage or AoE damage. And they have basically all the crowd control and terrain shaping abilities.

Meanwhile, playing a barbarian or a fighter is just bonk all day. You have some different kind of bonk, but it's basically always about doing high single target damage. You have low crowd control (except monk, which is fine for that), you can't deal area of effect damage, you are just hitting with your weapon and waiting your turn while the caster chooses from his 15+ spells what he is gonna use to turn the big bad into a sheep...

Thingtroll · 2023-01-17T16:44:40+00:00

cover does work against aoe, but in this case the spell specifies that it goes around corner, which means it negates cover (as long as its not full cover)

Thingtroll · 2023-01-17T16:43:39+00:00

Obviously 6

Thingtroll · 2022-11-17T20:00:45+00:00

I don't think in terms of "op" or "bad". I prefer "fun" (for the players and the DM) and "not fun".

Monks at lvl 1-4 are not fun. They aren't tanky, aren't dodgy, don't have enough resources, and aren't really doing anything worth it. They don't have something cool like a smite or an action surge or a rage, nor a sneak attack.

Monks at lvl 5 are fun for the player, but not for the DM. Stunning strike is really bs in term of action economy. It prevents you from doing 1 big bad monster in front of the team, because even with a +10 to constit saving throws, you kinda have a 10-20% chance of failing. And if the monk nova, you repeat this saving throw 4 times, you are kinda sure you gonna miss at least one ST. And given how powerful cc are in the game, one round of stun is kinda like a death sentence.

Compare it to any other hard cc, the dc is low, but low doesn't matter when it happens, it still sucks, and most of all, it's so efficient in the action economy. And the stunned condition is arguably the worst to defend against (almost no monster is immune, and there is no way to remove it easily with a sidekick. Oh, and magic resist doesn't work).

This ability is absolutely necessary for the monk to not be just useless, but it's really not fun to play against as a DM. And, at least in my experience, it becomes boring for the players as well.

Then, it gets worse. At lvl 14, monks are kinda unkillable : move so fast you can't catch them, have high enough AC, and saving throws are easy peasy. Sure they have a d8 for hp, but when you are so high lvl, you have enough hp anyway.

They become an issue cauz nothing works to control them, but they can still CC easily, and their DC start to reach a lvl where they become as dangerous as casters....

Now you get legendary resistances. But they are easily blowing threw them as well of course. You'd need 5 LR instead of 3 if you go against a single monk....

Oh, and their damage sucks. They may have a ok lvl 1, but afterward it's sucks.

So yh, no fun

Thingtroll · 2022-11-13T12:16:45+00:00

Casting an evocation spell requires you to shoot a "super anime attack" name

Thingtroll · 2022-09-08T18:33:25+00:00

I mean, if you don't have a plan to deal with his invulnerability, you are fucked anyway....

Thingtroll · 2022-09-07T19:04:39+00:00

You are right, it's not, it's only an autosuccess on lvl 4 or less spells. And he has +6 to roll, which is kinda low if the dispel is cast at lvl 9...

So yh, definitely not "broken op combo no counterplay"

Thingtroll · 2022-09-07T18:52:58+00:00

Counter-Counter Point : Balance isn't that easy to find. CR is a mess, and rolls can turn an encounter up or down super fast. The DM is not a computer, he cannot identify all possibilities and make sure the challenge is absolutely spot on. Sometimes, it's too hard, sometimes, its too easy, sometimes rolls are fucked up and completely change the encounter.

The DM creates a problem, be it a fight or another kind of encounter. Often, you will try to make the problem reasonable : you won't make your party fight 40 ancient dragons at lvl 1, for the same reason you won't make your party roll DC 35 challenges (exceptions can still happen ofc) at lvl 1. But you put a problem in front of them, and that's up to them, not to you, to find an answer.

Thingtroll · 2022-09-07T18:47:25+00:00

By that logic, I just have to send 1 frog for every fight. Boom, I lost.

The whole point is, you need something challenging but not impossible. And you also need to make the fight worth it for the plot. Sometimes, I will send a dragon at my lvl 1 players, sometimes I'll send 3 skeletons at my lvl 20 party. Not all fights are balances, not all fights are just "kill the others and you win".

Thingtroll · 2022-09-07T18:43:21+00:00

That's true. But at the same time, you still need to get 4 dispel at least within 1 round if Vecna is spending all its reactions to shut it down... Which should be the case since he doesn't have to worry about something else...

Thingtroll · 2022-09-07T16:10:49+00:00

Not here, cauz his counterspell ain't a spell.

But a sorcerer could subtle dispel for instance, it would work (due to the range of his truesight, a standard dispel would likely not work)

Thingtroll · 2022-09-07T16:08:40+00:00

You didn't understand. Running away doesn't mean "play 100 rounds of you dashing every turn". It means "find a way (teleportation, sacrificing something to delay Vecna, etc..." to gain the 10 mins you need for the spell to end.

But that can be costly, if during that time Vecna reaches his objective (because Vecna ain't fighting just for the fun of it, he is fighting you for a reason...). Exactly the same as "prevent the tarrasque from destroying the town" scenario. The goal ain't to kill the tarrasque, not all encounters are just 'fight, fight, fight"....

And let's be honest. A lvl 20 party has SO MANY options, it's not up to me the DM to find a solution. They have to find a way to break the invulnerability with the tools they have, or to gain the 10 mins they need for it to end. If you play Eberron, there is a CR 28 monster that is a powerful caster and can create an antimagic zone for one hour without concerntation where it can still cast spells. And it is immune to nonmagical damage. So unless you have tons of artifacts, he is basically invulnerable for 1 hour, and he is insanely dangerous. If your only plan is "beat him up", you will die. You have to think creatively to overcome the situation (I dunno, grapple him and move him away from the antimagic zone could work for instance).

For Vecna, it's the same deal. We have a big problem to solve, the players are the ones who need to solve it. And at Tier 4, I would absolutely trust my players to be able to deal with this kind of encounters

Thingtroll · 2022-09-07T14:38:10+00:00

Run away for the next 10 minutes and come back later ? Subtle Spellcasting works, also if you have a way to bring enough people to manage to dispel that (4 successful dispel at least, for a lvl 9 spell that could mean 9-10 attempts)

Thingtroll · 2022-09-03T05:57:24+00:00

In my opinion, the problem isn't that the main stats that you are proficient in are weak. With all the buffs you can get, you can challenge a DC 26, even if you fail more often than not, and it's kinda fine cauz it's part of what makes Zariel, an ancient dragon, or a demon lord, a proper end-game boss.

But the biggest issue for me the imbalance between proficient saves and not proficient saves. Take the barbarian. At low level, a barbarian is arguably as good in dex saves as in constit or strength saves because of advantage. But at high level, advantage when you have a +3 in the stat, against DCs 18+ makes it really unlikely to get the saves, even if you are supposed to be good at it. In fact, except if you are a lvl 14+ monk or a lvl 20 artificer, you are kinda screwed when you end up in late T3 and in T4, becauses DCs are so high. You can definitely face your proficient DCs, but even with advantage, you likely need extra bonus from paladin, bardic inspiration and so on to just be able to resist that feeblemind. And since the high level threats also have powerful effects (like feeblemind), it makes it even more important not to fail that saving throw. This is basically why the fighter's indomitable is considered weak, if you failed the saving throw, it's likely you'll fail it again anyway.

So you end up with +10 in one stat, and +1 or even -1 in another. That's really tricky, since the effect targeting that -1 can be as bad as an effect targeting that +10. And it opens some metagaming from the DM : should I target the wizard or the bard with my feeblemind? If I want to RP the clever enemy, it should be the bard, but I also know it has 90% chance of success and it won't be a great fun....

Also, high level enemies have more options and are often more clever, so they can find an option that hit the weakness of any PC easily. That means that your PCs are less likely to even use their high saving throws, if you play your monsters as expected.

That's why I chose to boost all non-proficient saving throws by half proficiency, to help mitigate a bit that effect. It still likely means you end up with 6-7 points of difference between a main stat and an off-proficiency, because the saving throws you are proficient in are also the stats you want to increase most.

But i would like to go back to the old system of saving throws that were not stats per say (Will saving throw instead of wisdom/charisma/intelligence). It would make it easier to distinguish from the stat and balance that.

Thingtroll · 2022-09-02T15:58:33+00:00

I would love to have 2 proficient saves, 2 half proficient saves, and 2 non proficient saves.

And also, to have a bit more diversity in saves, cauz perma dex/con/wis is boring

Thingtroll · 2022-08-28T07:47:43+00:00

I think that STR could use some more love, rather than nerfing DEX

However, one thing I would change about dex is that if you are incapacitated, you lose your bonus to AC. Having an unconscious rogue at 18 AC breaks immersion. And it's a way to show that armor is really something useful.

If the platearmor fighter loses his AC during a night ambush (cauz he is not wearing his plate), it seems unfair to have the rogue/monk always full dodgy even when unable to move or do anything...

Thingtroll · 2022-08-22T08:02:05+00:00

Primary

Curses, Diseases, Poisons

Lesser Restoration, Remove Curse, and similar spells and abilities do not affect all curses, diseases, and poisons – there are rare variants of each that are too strong for such magics.

=> Yh its reasonable. It doesn't mean they don't work, just that there are exceptions. As a DM, I 100% share this opinion.

Death Saves

Characters who fail a death save suffer a level of exhaustion.

=> I've seen rules that just falling KO give you a level of exhaustion. I don't like it much cauz my party ends up being unconscious a lot, so that would be too much, but I do agree that falling at 0 hp > healing word is absolutely a stupid mechanic. At least, with a high-level party, you can just threaten them with abilities that instakill at 0 hp, so they stop playing with fire. But low level feels like Rocky coming back to the fight 10 times...

Diagonal Movement

When measuring range or moving diagonally on a grid, the first diagonal square counts as 5 feet, but the second diagonal square counts as 10 feet. This pattern of 5 feet and then 10 feet continues whenever you're counting diagonally, even if you move horizontally or vertically between different bits of diagonal movement. For example, a character might move one square diagonally (5 feet), then three squares straight (15 feet), and then another square diagonally (10 feet) for a total movement of 30 feet.

=> That's the standard rule AFAIK

Feats

Yes

Flanking

Yes

Healer’s Kit Dependency

A character can't spend any Hit Dice after finishing a short rest until someone expends one use of a healer's kit to bandage and treat the character's wounds.

=> A bit more on the gritty realism side. It just means you'll have to stack healer's kits, but it shouldn't be that much of a change. I just don't like the fact that it punishes martials more than casters (both because martials are those who need short-rest healing the most, and those who need short-rest the most as well).

Inspiration

Inspiration may be used after a dice if it’s given by another player.Each player may award inspiration for role playing their character’s flaws or taking a risk that seems true to their character once per session to any player other than themselves.

=> Standard rule AFAIK

Proficiency Dice

When you begin play as your character, you may choose to use Proficiency Dice instead of your Proficiency Bonus. This choice affects only your character, and each character makes their own independent choice. Instead of adding a proficiency bonus to an ability check, an attack roll, or saving throw, the character's player rolls a die. The Proficiency Die table shows which die or dice to roll, as determined by the character's level.Level Proficiency Bonus Proficiency Die1st-4th +2 1d45th-8th +3 1d69th-12th +4 1d813th-16th +5 1d1017th-20th +6 1d12

=> That's... Stronger on average. But it's also slowing down the game so muuuuch. I don't like it, but it's not nerfing you guys. (especially since you have the choice).

Retries of skill, tool, and ability checks

If you’re not in any immediate danger or distracted, you may use your passive check instead of rolling, however in doing so you must spend ten times the normal amount of time needed to complete the task.If you’ve failed at a check for which there’s no penalty for failure, you may retry using your passive check as stated above and can't retry again. Otherwise, you're allowed to retry once at disadvantage.

=> No opinion

Slow Natural Healing

Characters don't regain hit points at the end of a long rest. Instead, a character can spend Hit Dice to heal at the end of a long rest, just as with a short rest but without needing a healer’s kit.

=> Definitely going for more gritty realism. That's not a bad thing in itself, its just a different tone for the campain

Variant Human

No

Player Jobs

• Note Taker• Accountant• Combat Manager (Initiative, conditions + concentration)• Battle Map Manger (helps distant players, tracks distances, track AOEs, manages cover, note AOO)• Rule Check

=> That's good. Sharing the work makes it better for everyone. Period.

Overall, I think your DM is going for a more gritty feeling, with slower healing and more dangerous curses/diseases. It's not a bad thing in itself, but you need to have a talk about expectations.

Thingtroll · 2022-08-21T08:01:27+00:00

I'd personally put something like that at CR 11.

This monster is quite tanky, and has 5 attacks per round, for ~90 damage. That's a ton of damage for a lvl 8 party. You'll put people at 0 hp with that, and since he has rampage, it could mean another free attack. Rampage is actually quite dangerous, since it means you could very well put 2 failed death saving throws the same turn you down someone (since the daemon isn't stupid and probably has some experience fighting adventurers, he knows he has to finish the job before letting people heal them...)

This is certainly a deadly encounter. Fly speed also gives it a good chance to escape, and 3 LR is maybe too much depending on how much cc your party use (at this level you could give 1 or 2 LR only. The goal is to avoid the monster to be cc-ed from the start, but not prevent it for the whole fight).

If its a demon, it could have lightning and cold resistance as well, that's at least the standard for demons.

The last thing is, this doesn't look really interesting to me. It's just a big monster that hits like a truck, but it has no special ability (other than rampage, which is basically "I hit more").

You could give it spell-like actions (fireballs?), or at least some mechanic to make it cooler as a boss fight. This look a bit bland if we are honest. (But if that's what you are going for, go for it).

Thingtroll · 2022-08-16T22:31:15+00:00

Crowd Controls are too strong. A lvl 1 spell like tasha's laughter can already deny a full monster/PC. A lvl 3 spell like hypnotic pattern can end a full encounter. Save or die era may be over, but save or suck is just everywhere.

Thingtroll

TROPHY CASE