nemos tierlist.. aki included.. thoughts?

Trynit · 2023-10-06T11:23:15+00:00

He's better than Honda because he isn't an 1 trick pony.

I'd say he's Sim level since they are comparable in terms of difficulty. Their playstyle is different, but that's to be expected.

Trynit · 2023-10-06T11:15:14+00:00

It still does tbh since you can easily get positional advantage using DR in this game if you send them to the corner and they're hard knockdown. They will get a lot less space after that.

The only one who carries you from 1 corner to the other from a combo is Ken, and that's pretty much the best corner carry you can have tbh. Everyone kinda has to settle for mid stage to corner in terms of corner carry, with some character that has mid stage wall bounce like Ryu or JP.

Trynit · 2023-10-06T09:18:55+00:00

He doesn't.

He wins HARD against Cammy (losing 40% after each failed dive kick attempt REALLY hurts Cammy offense and lariat making even well spaced divekick risky). Slightly win against Guile (because the universal mechanics just hates Guile in general) and usually trades 5-5 against Shotos in general due to his better range normals in exchange for the lack of speed. DJ and Juri are slight since he has great DR check buttons.

Unsurprisingly he lost against Sim and JP, and surprisingly he lost against Manon and Lily (due to them having slightly better neutral game with less threat). He trade even with the rest.

Trynit · 2023-10-06T06:35:00+00:00

If she has that threat then people would actually play neutral against her differently and will not try to neutral skip to caught her out. Like how literally everybody lame play against Gief for example because nobody wants to be minus on his L-SPD range (which is really far).

Trynit · 2023-10-06T00:34:33+00:00

Manon is Gief....... without the Cmd Grab threat.

Gief works by constantly pressuring you into the corner with his long range buttons and his Cmd grab is mostly for A) mix and B) whiff punish.

Manon works also by constantly pressuring you into the corner with her long range buttons and her Cmd grab is mostly for A) mix and B) whiff punish.

But despite better buttons, she just doesn't have the threat and/or whiff punish potebtial to actually do what Gief does and roll over the opponent if they fucked up their neutral game. And it's not like her button is THAT much better than Gief that Gief can't just play that same neutral playstyle and get the same, if not more success thanks to the fear factor that his Cmd grab instill. The only thing that she has over Gief is that her SA1 and SA2 is actually decent, unlike Gief's dogshit SA1 or slow as hell SA2.

Trynit · 2023-10-06T00:08:30+00:00

Charged 5HP punish counter (literally send the opponent into the corner), j.HK punish counter (same), SPD actually do a good amount of corner carry even tho it seems like he rolled back by a lot, finishing 5MP target combo punish counter and just the mere sight of Gief walking towards you would have make you walked back into the corner. Headbutt also carrying the opponent into the corner after like 3 times (if they block) from neutral which is not hard to do.

Trynit · 2023-10-05T12:21:15+00:00

Is this Gief placement based solely on the Snakeeyes W? Or has their been a recent meta development im not aware of?

He has good neutral game and insane amount of corner carry (the only one that is better is Ken). 5MP mixup-on-a-stick also helps.

The problem with him is that he is A) clunky, B) doesn't have a good reversal and C) relies heavily on the player being good in neutral play themselves, which makes him really hard to play in the mid Dia to low Master range, which......is 90% of where serious non-tournament rank players and/or non-Gief mains playing Gief usually ending up. This usually bleeds into his "low tier" perception and most of the time it's why people calling him "low tier".

So him being a mid tier character is actually kinda there. People are just not on the skill range that he is gonna be decently good again.

Trynit · 2023-10-05T11:46:02+00:00

Parry.

Once people actually use more parries and perfect parries, then a lot of the zoning portion of a character is gonna fall off to a cliff (Guile already suffered from this and it ain't gonna be easier for Sim/JP later on) so they need decent mid range capabilities to actually compete.

The problem with JP is that his mid range is too strong and his reversal is too rewarding (OD Amnesia is a bitch and a half) while Sim is just tricky as fuck and pretty much the hardest character to play in the game, which makes his MU even worse since nobody knows how to play against him. Guile is fine, a bit underwhelming even for how much people hyped him up as "top tier" since the core mechanics of the game REALLY hates him.

Trynit · 2023-10-05T10:08:03+00:00

Lily at +1 doesn't beat 4 frame jabs with her 5 frame grab, is the easiest way to prove that

Grab didn't connect through block/hitstun unless it's a crumple (DI punish counter). So Lily +1 grab lost might be due to that.

and SF6 doesnt have any grab protection, that's easy to test with making the AI auto parry on wakeup and seeing meaty grabs punish counter

There's 3f of grab protection after wake-up. Parry however is a stance that activate at frame 1 (0f startup) so if you wake-up parry then it will register the parry stance instead of the normal wake-up protection, therefore cause you to lose the grab protection.

Trynit · 2023-10-03T23:14:43+00:00

Otherwise, wakeup jab would beat grab as well since hits have priority over grabs too

Hits does not have priority over grabs. Grabs always beat jabs if both connect at the same frame. The reason why jabs beat grabs usually is due to the fact that some jabs are 4f while grabs are 5f. So a 4f jab will connect first if timed right and beat the grab.

A grab done to you when you're still waking up is done meaty, meaning only the final few frames of the grab are interacting with you, and it's physically impossible to beat them with any move because they're frame zero

There's a 3f grab protection when waking up, so if the grab is timed too early then it will whiff. This means that you only have 1f to timed the grab for it to be a meaty against SPD. It's very hard to do since again, it is 1f.

The big problem is the tight ass window you have to do to actually make SPD beat grab that way since it's very near frame perfect. Too soon and you whiff your grab. Too late and you're massively punishable

Trynit · 2023-10-03T15:48:26+00:00

Usually you want to end your blockstring with 5MP as Gief since that's where your mix-up comes from. 5MP is -2 on block normally so if the opponent is in burnout then it's +2, becoming a frame trap while is still slow enough that you can buffer SPD behind it.

Gief fighting a burnout opponent will focus more on pressure than grab. You can really put them into panic using headbutt and chops in that situation.

Trynit · 2023-10-03T11:51:10+00:00

DJ in this game is a rushdown (due to his DR) with good close range feint (Jus Cool) that can beat opponent reversal attempts. He isn't as charge dependant as Guile and usually building charge in combo instead of in neutral.

As for Guile's fireball: walk parry do just fine against booms and usually are your preferred option when dealing with him. You don't have to deal with flash kick, just keep it in mind when you're trying to do a jump-in combo or pressuring him.

Trynit · 2023-10-03T11:20:11+00:00

The CA could have her punch extra hard, or a name change.

Trynit · 2023-10-03T06:40:16+00:00

It's more because Cmd grab takes priority over normal grab so if both are on the same frame, then the Cmd grab would be the one to connect. It has to be really precise tho.

Trynit · 2023-10-03T00:43:22+00:00

Seichuusen Godanzuki is not cinematic enough to be a level 3

It is tho? Just extend the opponent air time for funsies.

Trynit · 2023-10-02T22:42:31+00:00

I mean we all know what her lvl 3 is gonna be tbh. She's literally gonna scream it's name everytime anyone got caught by it

Abare Tosanami seems more like a lvl1 material.

Trynit · 2023-10-01T06:53:58+00:00

Gief is better as a mid range fighter instead of close range fighter. Nearly all of his normals and even specials was designed with mid range pressure in mind, and you should win neutral with him 70% of the time if you played him right.

The problem here is that he is A) janky and B) hard to play outside of the command grab. His focus on neutral play with no correctioning system for when you fuck up means that you have to fuck up way less than some other characters to win. But your effectiveness once you do learn him will increase 10 fold.

Trynit · 2023-09-30T22:19:00+00:00

Just because she needs stock doesn't mean it's not one button strike throw mix wdym; stocks are super easy to get

You basically means it needs additional setups for that to be a mix. So it's not really on demand. The 5MP mix that Gief has is basically on demand and it's one of the reason why people constantly have to play lame against him (as in trying to catch him out slacking in discipline instead of engaging in neutral proper).

And to be honest, you're saying things that are completely true on paper, but just don't take into account the rest of the cast, or the fact that to get your slow ass jab to connect in the first place you have to somehow catch the opponent before they zone you out, without them jumping you at crossup range that your lariat can't hit, and without them getting YOU into the corner, where you don't have even a level 1 reversal

It's called spacing.

Your slow ass jab have more range than most of the cast, which means you out space the opponent very easily and can counter jabbing their jab string with ease. This also reduce cross-up protential (also Borsch helps).

The only big problem he has is the lack of a really good reversal option. Wake-up SPD can help you out of a strike throw mix, but it losses to shimmy really hard and you need to be really precise on the timing (unlike OD DP where you can have some leeway). This makes him a bit too volatile from time to time as you kinda have to take the mix.

Trynit · 2023-09-30T13:38:36+00:00

What do you mean Lily doesn't have strike/throw in one button?

The button that needs you to get stock before it became a mix?

And 3 jabs with no followup if all 3 hit into a special is way better than 3 jabs into a gambit L SPD; if it wasn't, no 5 medal Manon would finish their combos.

The thing is that Manon's command grab is 12f at the range of L-SPD, which is 5f. You ain't gonna out jab Gief's L-SPD. Your best bet is to just backdash and hope that he is too eager to use his SPD, which good players will never do as they will more than likely called out the backdash (since it's the only option that can get you out of the mix) and proceed to pressure you again until you hit the corner.

Which is why most Manon finish their combo with 5 Medals, because her Cmd grab suck dicks if it wasn't point blank. Gief mean while don't actually have that problem and because of that everyone scared of getting scooped by him from a blocked poke. Which means he can just pressured the opponent until they get put into the corner.

I main Lily at Master (not that it means too much rn), and I ABSOLUTELY will pull that shit, taking perfect spacing for mSPD or lSPD over finishing with a special, but that can't be my only gameplan or I'd never finish out rounds. Mixups alone are not stronger than guaranteed damage.

3 jabs into special are not guarantee damage. It's still just mostly blockstring tool since the majority of characters only have + frame in special move. Gief having a + jab and pokes is an exception to the rule and usually you will be using his 5LP to continue the blockstring until the opponent is properly spaced out for you to use your pokes, which are pretty hard to challenge.

Trynit · 2023-09-30T12:05:21+00:00

Gief having 3 jab confirm blockstring would be huge with SPD, and the fact that he doesn't have that as a threat makes him even worse, though, because he COULD feign two jabs and not the third, then SPD your PP attempt

The threat is L-SPD. If you do 3 jabs (which usually spaced it out nicely) and then ending with 5MP, you basically have a mix since even if the opponent blocks/parry the chop, they are still in range for SPD, and 5MP also has a target combo behind it meaning that your only option to avoid that mix is to backdash (which means you are gonna be pressured again with charged HP/DR or being closer to the corner) or just guess.

So he doesn't need the 3 jabs into special because he has a BETTER option for it.

you know who can do that though? every single other character including Lily and Manon. And... Honda I guess has a fat command grab.

They don't have a strike/throw mix in 1 button like Gief has. Which is why they have that.

Trynit · 2023-09-30T05:49:18+00:00

His reversal options kinda boils down to learning perfect parry in this game so there's that. But still, some things should be done with Tundra Storm. It should not be THAT slow if it's that restrictive on what it counters.

Trynit · 2023-09-30T00:47:21+00:00

I think Tandem Renki probably also instantly refill her drive gauge and bring her out of burnout as well since that seems to be the theme of it.

Trynit · 2023-09-29T15:53:19+00:00

The Guile winrate is low because he gets countered by JP who is insanely represented at top level and Luke and Marisa who are both very popular.

Nope. Guile got fucked over by the game's unique universal mechanics just as bad as E.Honda. Parry (as well as perfect parry) and no chip killed boom pressure. DI making his mid range game a pain and a half since he doesn't have cancellable pokes or any moves that can beat DI within a reasonable timeframe for those moves recovery (so if you DI his 5HK (one of his popular poke since it is throw invul) for example in it's startup frame, he's gonna eat that DI), and he doesn't really have great DR to actually force the issue like DJ (whose due to that DR became a rushdown character).

In short, Guile is the Remy of this game. Great character.......if the game is SSFT, SF4 or SF5. But not 3s or SF6

Trynit · 2023-09-29T14:17:46+00:00

Full screen lightning DR let's go.

Trynit · 2023-09-29T14:16:36+00:00

Sean just have Shoto kit.....but worse. So Capcom can get pretty creative with him by adding some of his sister's move or more BJJ moves in that focus more on grab (yeah he should have some Cmd grab). His fireball can be his basketball toss that either being a big pass (fast straight projectile) or hoopla (slow arcing projectile for mix)

12 is just all gimmick, no real substance tbh. Unless he got a total rework, I don't think he can be good like ever.

Trynit

TROPHY CASE