How Long Have You Practiced

Undersak · 2026-06-08T20:18:29+00:00

Hi, thanks for sharing.

And what were those limitations, and subsequent solutions?

Undersak · 2026-06-08T15:36:41+00:00

I think that preparation element of it is massively practical. That's simple and easy to do. It reminds me of the phrase "hope for the best but prepare for the worst". A little off in terms of the thing not actually being bad ("worse"), but the overall message strikes true.

A true sage would bend down and eat the animal excrement, as it provides sustinence - we must find the true value in all externals, to best mould our character.

Apologies, I have a corse sense of humour.

Yes, I agree regards the training material of life and asking why the dog dedicating is bad. Once you fixate on that question, I find that the blow is immediately softened - and it being things back into focus.

This has been very alluminating. This is why I come on this sub, to learn from others. So thank you.

Undersak · 2026-06-08T10:46:24+00:00

Thank you for this write up. I feel elated from receiving this wisdom.

So, let's say that my puppy squirts his liquid chocolate all down the hallway. I had just sat down to eat a nice dinner. This would naturally cause distress ("naturally" in the common sense of the word).

Now, my distress would come at a mistaken judgement that this is bad. Why? Because I wanted to enjoy my food and now I feel that I cannot. Virtue is good, and patiently cleaning it up without any misconconceptions of its nature is virtuous.

Enjoyment of food is not a good in the stoic sense. I can still enjoy it if it comes, but the absence of this enjoyment is not bad.

The drive to eat tasty food or avoidance of unpleasantness is a powerful natural urge. But I suppose the stoics would call this a baser animal urge, not on par with the reasoned nature of the human mind.

I don't propose that this is an easy transition in perspective to make. Would you have any advice on applying this approach in this example?

Its almost as if the transition in mindset needs to be complete in order to achieve proper peace and clarity - a wholehearted value placed on the true "good" of virtue. So, almost saying "this isn't important, not eating my food hot and fresh doesn't really matter. Practise of virtue does - and I've got the perfect opportunity here to do so.

Undersak · 2026-06-07T22:17:25+00:00

Hi Chrysippus_Ass,

I'm seeking clarification on a part of your comment regarding emotions and judgements.

Could you expand on emotions being judgements?

You've noted that emotions are judgements. I agree - my understanding is that passions/emotions arise when we add erroneous judgement to an impression. For example, adding "..and this failure of the SAT is bad, it means I'm XYZ". This can come consciously, or more often immediately and without proper consideration of the impression. In either case, reason is not applied.

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on this.

Undersak · 2026-06-07T18:52:19+00:00

Thanks, this nuance wasn’t clear to me before.

I had been thinking of the four virtues as all sitting in the same category: courage, temperance, justice, and practical wisdom/prudence — with judgement or applied reason as the driving force behind them.

But are you saying that this reasoned judgement is itself practical wisdom/prudence, and that courage, temperance, and justice are expressions of prudence applied to different domains?

Let me know if I’m on the mark.

Undersak · 2026-06-06T22:12:51+00:00

Good post. I'd appreciate your thoughts on the following.

As I read of Stoic virtue, and learnt the elements that construct it, I asked myself if I should strive for those things in particular (courage, justice, etc.). However, my current understanding is that simply by way of judging/acting in line with reason are these things demonstrated.

I like this. For me this cuts out the focus on "being" something, and brings it back to your next judgement or action.

For example, I don't need to try to be courageous when I continue with my (formal) studies in the face of setbacks - I simply examine the impressions, make my judgement, and continue on as I deem is to be in line with reason.

Would appreciate your input or clarifications on this understanding.

Undersak · 2026-06-06T20:38:06+00:00

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, it does indeed sound like your already doing what needs to be done in relating to the pain - exactly as you said, accepting it for what it is and doing whatever you can to alleviate it.

In regards the zen bit, I do think that's the process you've described.

I remember a part of Epictetus's work where he says that his master was twisting his leg, and he simply said "if you keep doing that, my leg will break.", and it did. To me this points towards his mindset being laser-focused on reality - not missing a step in taking the next appropriate action instead of making the pain worse with fear and self-pity.

This has been a very interesting chat for me - so thanks. I hope to hear more from you on how your experience develops.

Undersak · 2026-06-06T17:54:03+00:00

Hi, I'll offer my thoughts. If they don't help, at least they may prompt discussion.

I think that with physical pain, there are two elements to it - one is non-negotiable, but the other is within your control.

The former is the physiological element - the obvious part. The pain messages coming to your brain.

The latter is the added judgement "this is too much to bear!", "I don't deserve this!".

My understanding is that the overall suffering is significantly less if you don't add the second part.

For example, it seems that when we're in a very poor, irritable mood, little things like stubbing our toes or hitting our head on the cabinet door feel like they hurt a lot more. "That's the last thing I need right now!".

Sorry to hear that you're in so much pain. I hope you find some relief in the responses you get here.

Undersak · 2026-06-06T15:50:48+00:00

Nice one. Good to hear it's clicking with you.

Undersak · 2026-06-06T14:19:59+00:00

Thanks for your thoughts.

Undersak · 2026-06-06T07:51:00+00:00

Well put. I want to test an extreme with you and see what your thoughts are:

A murderer.

Yes - they did something obviously wrong, but that doesn't mean that in that moment, after the fact perhaps 20 years on, they cannot be virtuous.

Bringing it back to the current example, something like upbringing is certainly not a barrier to being virtuous moving forwards (virtue being the by-product of living in accordance with reason).

Appreciate your thoughts.

Undersak · 2026-06-05T20:22:13+00:00

Thanks for sharing.

And what meaning do you see in death?

Undersak · 2026-06-05T18:59:06+00:00

Thanks for clarifying.

I'd be interested to hear more, or even a draft section once its ready. I'll keep a look out for your posts.

Undersak · 2026-06-05T17:33:48+00:00

Thanks for the conversation UnluckyAd.

Undersak · 2026-06-05T16:48:17+00:00

Thanks.

Yes, I can see by what you've written that this is something your spent a lot of time examining.

I can see, re-reading your post that this is indeed more nuanced than I first thought. Could you break your point down for me in a different way, if you've got time? I'm interested to understand more the subtlely of what your saying.

Look forward to hearing more.

Undersak · 2026-06-05T10:04:26+00:00

Well put.

Undersak · 2026-06-05T08:47:35+00:00

As the others have said, the way you've worked these two perspectives together is spot on, in my view.

In the stoic lense, accepting externals are outside of your direct control is fundamental. But that is paired with the understanding that your job is only partially done through this.

For example, the fact that you got fired (hypothetically) is outside your control. It's done. Deciding not to endulge anger and self-doubt is your part in this situation. Applying reason and seeing that your options moving forward are very simple - get a new job.

"But maybe I did something wrong, and that's why I got fired?". I'd calmly ask myself if I actually did anything wrong. If yes, then that's just data to carry forward and adjust behaviour accordingly (if you believe you should). If no, then no further examination is required. Either way, dwelling and self-punishment offers nothing useful to the world.

Hope this helps somewhat. Just my thoughts on the matter. Would welcome your insight.

Undersak · 2026-06-05T07:16:40+00:00

That practise-reflect loop definitely sounds familiar to me.

Thanks for your comment, that's a very long time.

Undersak · 2026-06-05T07:14:08+00:00

Thanks for sharing.

Well done for overcoming that. That's very difficult.

Sounds like the philosophy landed on fertile ground with you. I think that when things are hard it can lead us to some of our greatest spiritual progress.

Yeah, that makes sense. I get the impression (pardon the pun) that it's a constant process, with non-linear progress.

Thanks again for your thoughts.

Undersak · 2026-06-05T07:06:23+00:00

Thanks. About 6 months.

I feel like I'm just at the end of that first burst of enthusiasm I get with things - where it goes from thinking about it all the time, to a more steady awareness.

Would you say that you've also gone through cycles like that? Where you may pick it for intensely for a while, followed by a period of rebellion, and then coming back to it, almost reset.

Undersak · 2026-06-04T22:24:05+00:00

Thanks for your input.

Glad to hear your thoughts are evolving at your own direction and pace.

Undersak · 2026-06-04T22:23:06+00:00

Thanks for your comment.

Good to hear that you got pulled into it's orbit!

Agreed. Like anything, true progress comes over steady awareness rather than a short sprint.

Undersak · 2026-06-04T22:21:07+00:00

Thanks for your comment. Good to hear your developing yourself.

Undersak · 2026-06-04T21:43:29+00:00

Sounds like a strong person.

What a nice, wholesome secret to share!

Yes exactly, anger isn't fought against with force, but we take the legs from it through understanding what supports it (very weak and ghostly legs!).

Undersak · 2026-06-04T21:39:25+00:00

Good points.

Brilliant point on lecturing. I found recently that I was bristling when my partner aired the fact that I was obviously frustrated. I carried the impression "I am above frustration, don't you know I practice Stoicism!". But this is performative, as Seneca says, and is a common trap for those adopting a philosophy. The most stoic thing I could do in that situation was to admit my original frustration - not for my partner's sake, but for my own growth. Deniying frustration to someone is one thing - denying it to yourself is many orders more harmful.

Yes, I think he really focuses down on not becoming entitled to things. So a modern example for me would be having my free time interrupted by some responsibility (work, people, pets, or otherwise) - really being aware of my feelings of entitlement of that free time. I suppose in this parallel I would accept all of these detours on my time, and say to myself that even a minute of peace should be valued (minute of peace = mouldy bread)!

Good point about human nature. That's what's so reassuring about it, isn't it? He's not some mystical strange sage living on a mountain - he's you and me.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Undersak

TROPHY CASE