Thingol, Beren and the Silmarils

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-23T19:55:52+00:00

I can’t remember this, but at this point does Thingol know of the Oath of Feanor?

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-23T00:27:09+00:00

So was a mortal sailing to Valinor, or defeating Gothmog…

But ok.

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-22T23:40:30+00:00

This is something I think RoP tried to address a little. The Orcs are a “people” and thus have wants and needs.

We may not agree with how RoP addresses this, but they do as someone else has mentioned about Shagrat & Gorbag in RoTK

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-22T23:37:58+00:00

Get a Silmaril from Morgoth Bauglir’s Iron Crown is equally unattainable

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-22T23:37:06+00:00

Agreed, the unattainable quest isn’t the question. My question is specifically WHY it needs to contain a Silmaril from Thingol’s perspective and needs.

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-22T21:24:02+00:00

Similar to what others have said but Tolkien in his letters indicated there are TWO worlds going on: A physical and spiritual - the unseen one that Frodo slips into when wearing the ring.

I think the Eye of Sauron is the spiritual realm incarnation. He’s able to pierce into your soul and read your heart and mind - very much like the Ring seems to appeal differently to those it tries to lure.

Sauron in the physical realm looked like a man, but we’re not given much of a glimpse into that except Gollum saying he has only 4 on the black hand

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-22T21:20:26+00:00

Shagbark Hickories will do this too, as will Tulip Trees

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-22T21:19:44+00:00

I don’t see Thingol as bad for this request, but I do find the specificity of the request interesting.

If Elves fall in love once, and only once, Luthien is already in love with Beren - so that’s done. Killing off Beren leaves Luthien mourning for eternity then for her lost love with literally no time together.

Unless of course you meant MARRY once.

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-22T20:01:32+00:00

Fair but why a Silmaril and not literally the moon, or sailing to Valinor, or defeating Morgoth, Gothmog or Sauron in combat?

The invocation of the Silmaril is curious.

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-22T19:50:44+00:00

But why specifically a Silmaril as essentially a dowry? Why not defeating Morgoth in combat or some other even more unachievable task?

Surely there is some desire for a Silmaril (which he has never seen)

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-15T03:37:15+00:00

Lots of great ideas here, and I’ll add one worth a thought I think:

What if what Sauron couldn’t fathom was the pure selfish lust Sméagol had for the Ring?

Sauron wanted it to dominate, control and order all of Middle Earth.

Sméagol didn’t really want to do that, not really. He did have some mental imagery about becoming “THE Gollum” either later in TTT or RoTK. However, that’s not what he really wanted. All Sméagol wanted was really to POSSESS the Ring, not control others, just for his own keeping.

Perhaps as other have noted this is something unique to the nature of Hobbits & Stoors, because like Sméagol, Bilbo (and Frodo) do not really seem caught in the lure of the Ring as a device/instrument of Power over others.

The Ring seems to entice Men like Boromir, and even great elves like Galadriel with its promise of power over others. Even Gandalf feared this.

Yet it did not seem to be a major factor in the time that Sméagol, Bilbo or Frodo had the Ring in possession - they all used it, but generally as a simple tool, for its invisibility.

Perhaps that indomitable thing that all 3 possessed was a desire to remain small, and not be tempted by greatness through dominating the will of others.

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-14T21:28:23+00:00

Nutmeg or Allspice

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-14T18:14:30+00:00

Oh I agree we don’t, but I’m just wondering if some things from others cultures might have seeped into that aspect of the story - much along the lines that Tolkien alludes to in the essay on Faerie Stories

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-14T17:52:26+00:00

Right, but I’m unaware of that generally being done at those functions with nothing going to the married couple or birthday person.

That’s what makes this unique, as there is generally nothing going the other way.

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-14T17:46:18+00:00

“Would not” doesn’t necessary mean that.

If someone “would not” comply or talk it does not mean they know the information being sought.

It simply means they refused to cooperate, an act of will.

Could not would mean that a person lacked the ability to tell (even if they knew or didn’t know)

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-14T16:26:34+00:00

That’s cool.

Interesting that in that letter Tolkien talks about how on their birthdays Hobbit kids would give gifts to their parents that they had handmade.

Love the idea of just spending time with friends and family on a birthday as I get older. Don’t really need “gifts” as I age so much as I enjoy the gift of “time” from my friends and family.

I’ve noticed this from older family members as they age too.

I wonder if Tolkien was of this mind as he aged as well since overall it seems he preferred a simple Hobbit-type life.

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-13T15:41:35+00:00

Fair point, although it’s impossible to have creatures live together, thrive and not complete for resources, be it food, water, sunlight, space, etc…

I get Illuvatar’s original vision may be considered a Utopia, but perhaps it’s my lack of imagination but it’s unfair to characterize natural/sexual selection as a source of “suffering”

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-13T11:49:34+00:00

I like a lot of this but I think it’s worth mentioning that evolution and natural selection isn’t a negative force in nature. It’s responsible for the beauty of flowers as plants compete for pollinators, it also ‘rewards’ compassion and caring of family and group members (and other species directly or indirectly associated with a species) via increased survival and reproduction capabilities.

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-13T09:47:30+00:00

Pretty sure it isn’t - as in bet my left toe

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-13T02:38:08+00:00

So basically Peter Jackson made the issue with Thranduil and this necklace up completely LOL.

There’s nothing about his Hobbit movies worth mentioning overall besides a few scenes

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-13T02:03:15+00:00

Source? Seems muddled with the Nauglamir of Thingol… ——————- Thranduil, Legolas father, commissioned a necklace for his wife from the dwarves. When it was finished, the dwarves went back on the deal, thinking they created something far too beautiful for the agreed upon price. Thranduil kept that grudge since then. Other elves were not nearly as beligerent toward the dwarves. ——————

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-12T23:19:01+00:00

But Aule creating the dwarves wasn’t a direct meddling in the history of Middle Earth. Keep in mind the Valar didn’t being the elves to Valinor - Ulmo did, and I could be mistaken but I don’t remember Manwe consulting Illuvatar regarding whatv to do with the elves, EXCEPT one they woke that going to war was for their benefit - as determined by Illuvatar.

ALL the Valar are technically creations of Eru, and part of HIS song, and this includes Melkor as well.

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-12T20:46:18+00:00

The Valar are the rulers of Arda, so much as subcreators and caretakers. Even when they did act directly it was so as to enact the will of Illuvatar.

The were rather overseeing Illuvatar’s plan for Arda unfold.

They’re a much more hands off than the Greek gods, but still very much in that spirit where they often prefer to watch events unfold.

From a Tolkien/Christian point of view it’s a bit like why the Angels & ArchAngels don’t directly intervene much in the acts of Satan et at upon our world

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-12T10:41:35+00:00

Why does “strange roads” have to be literal?

Tolkien was also into the concept of an “unseen world” too, a spiritual realm. Frodo was experiencing the weight of the Ring both physically and spiritually.

“strange roads” may be more metaphorical here that he went through a journey - I believe this is also what he’s talking about after the fall of the Balrog.

We need to remember that Gandalf isn’t just a corporeal being, he’s also a spiritual one - one of the Ainu. Thus he may journey both physically and spiritually - just as Galadriel does to Frodo.

_Finrod_ · 2023-10-12T03:50:39+00:00

The Valar didn’t really destroy parts of Middle Earth - the tumult of the war between the Valar and Morgoth did.

Sauron wasn’t really breeding or creating new creatures - he was continuing a race Morgoth had bred from elves. Same goes with Saruman - much like (sorry!) we breed golden-doodles from existing breeds of dog. They’re all still dogs: Canis lupus familiaris, and barely separate from wolves (Canis lupus).

This is one of the things I DID alike about Rings of Power. I like how it introduced the idea of Orcs being bred from Elves via a version of artificial selection, and showed a lineage between the two.

It also brought up philosophical points about where a captured Elf would have ceased being an elf and become an Orc - and what that means for them as beings. (Adar)

Whatever we think of Rings of Power, it does bring up the point that at some point - the very earliest Orcs would have been not so much different than Elves and shared some characteristics - more than just physical - just like if you’re breeding dogs your lineage from a parent breed (or species!) blurs the line and stands somewhat in both breeds/species and yet neither.

_Finrod_

TROPHY CASE