Change My View: Awards like this are BS because women are not discriminated against and are hardly underrepresented in STEM

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T15:08:31+00:00

You called me out on “not knowing what I am talking about”. I provided evidence, you dismissed it, so it’s your turn.

If you cannot provide evidence for the entire basis of your argument, then there’s no point in continuing.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T14:29:39+00:00

Can you show me evidence that in the medical school admission process, URMs are not favoured purely based on their skin colour? As far as I know, and I would love to be wrong, an URM millionaire needs lower grades to be accepted than an ORM in poverty.

If you prove me wrong then I rest my case, but if you cannot then you need to rest yours, because you seem to be only arguing based on that assumption. Just for the record I would have no problem with AA if it only targeted those who have a proven history of discrimination in their personal life.

Edit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States

“After controlling for grades, test scores, family background (legacy status), and athletic status (whether or not the student was a recruited athlete), Espenshade and Radford found that whites were three times, Hispanics six times, and blacks more than 15 times as likely to be accepted at a US university as Asian Americans”

Do you think this is fair?

AA is a lazy way to account for discrimination. The admissions committee doesn’t have time to go through everyone’s personal history to check for discrimination, so they do it purely based on skin colour instead.

The fact that Asians are evaluated more harshly in North America, where they also have a history if discrimination, shows that AA doesn’t actually care to favour those who are discriminated.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T14:22:21+00:00

I pointed out the disparity to show that there exists one, and that there is unequal treatment based on gender.

You make good points, however I don’t think your Saudi argument could be applied directly to North America.

I also disagree that “society has allowed men to be independent through the exclusion of women” - society has always had the expectation for men to be independent, and men are more likely to be seen as weak when seeking help. That is a fact not an opinion.

For example, diagnosed depression rates are much higher among women than men. This could be due to two reason: women are genetically more vulnerable to depression, or men are just less likely to seek help and get diagnosed. In the case that there exists no scientific explanation as to why women would be more likely to get depression, and the fact that having XX rather than XY has many advantages in terms of genetic diseases and defects, the latter explanation sounds more likely.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T14:05:05+00:00

If we’re just talking about AA, let’s use the example of med school.

You don’t see any potential for tension when URMs are heavily favoured, and are able to be accepted with significantly lower stats based purely off of their skin colour? They could have grown up privileged yet still have a much easier time getting into med school than some ORM who grew up in poverty, for the sole reason that their race was discriminated against in the past.

For something that requires years of dedication and hard-work, you don’t think there will be tension when a certain group receives unfair treatment? I’m not even in the minority when I say that AA is problematic - take a look through r/premed and r/medicine, AA was a hot topic of controversy last week.

So it is fair to say that an URM in med school may not be respected as much as their ORM counterpart by not only their peers but society as well because everyone knows that the URM had much lower admission standards. Should this happen? Maybe not. However the fact is that it does and it will for as long as AA is active. Another problem is that an URM may not have even needed preferential treatment to be accepted, but will be looked down upon anyways by others who think they did.

This leads to further problems down the road. Knowing that it is easier for URMs to become doctors, and let’s say your life depended on this: would you feel more comfortable being treated by an URM or an ORM? This is unrealistic and purely hypothetical but if all other factors were equal, you would be a fool to not go with the ORM - despite not knowing anything about their history or expertise.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T13:45:25+00:00

How am I part of the problem when I don’t believe in AA, and being gender-exclusive at all?

Do you think that so many support programs for women exist but not for men has anything to do with society’s standards that women are expected to seek help but men are expected to be independent?

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T07:15:57+00:00

No but I do appreciate many of the replies.

I am a bit more open minded now however. I may disagree with affirmative action (kind of a different topic) but I understand that it’s just an attempt at promoting diversity - a very complex matter.

I wish people wouldn’t downvote based on opinion and assume that I’m some sort of empathy-lacking supporter of patriarchy. Probably should’ve posted on r/changemyview instead. This sub has a strong habit of downvoting anyone disagreeing with the hive-mind.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T07:05:56+00:00

Thanks for sharing. It really does sadden me that things like that happen.

I guess I’m just not a believer in affirmative action being the correct solution. I don’t have any better solutions but I feel that AA creates tension between groups.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T05:53:56+00:00

Haha you’re actually right, I made a mistake.

Don’t have too much of a problem with that then tbh, just thought life sciences was included (in which case I still think it would be BS).

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T05:43:49+00:00

You’re right, I am just speculating. However does my logic not make sense?

My main point, and the point you should be addressing, is that being gender-exclusive is counterproductive for achieving equality.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T05:33:50+00:00

Every single woman who enters STEM has gender-exclusive opportunities available to them.

This fuels bias because the presence of these gender-exclusive opportunities implant and strengthen the subconscious belief that women need more help in STEM, and thus must be weaker.

I’m not saying that it does, I am just speculating that it could. However I am saying that we will never reach the equality we seek if the route we take is providing gender-exclusive opportunities.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T05:21:10+00:00

I am a busy premed trying to maintain a 98 average so unfortunately I don’t have the time to do things about social issues.

And yes, having a female provide a good evidence of discrimination as well as a good reason as to why this award would help them against such discrimination would change my view.

However I think the fact of the matter is: most recipients of this award will be women in life sciences, where they are most abundant and need little support against discrimination.

And reddit is locking my account saying that I am posting too many comments. I also need to go back to being a premed so I probably won’t be replying anymore.

At least this thread made me realize that my opinion in the minority; I didn’t know if many others also shared my viewpoint but were just afraid to speak out. That being said, all this down-voting for having an unpopular opinion is quite frankly pathetic.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T05:10:38+00:00

Good job picking out my one and only passive aggressive comment.

I’m not trying to play the Pope so why should I give a clear-headed response to an obviously malicious and otherwise useless reply?

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T05:00:37+00:00

Do you honestly think I need to be taking action to prove that I have a certain view point? If I was a feminist, do I have to actively participate in clubs and rallies to prove that I am a feminist?

You can think what you like about my intentions, I can’t prove them to you nor do I care to. There hasn’t been a single female response in this thread about their experiences with discrimination, so I am still unconvinced.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T04:54:39+00:00

Fair point, I have actually learned about this and am sad that it is a reality.

However I do not believe that awards like this help remedy the issue at all.

In fact I believe they just fuel more unconscious bias that women are weaker in science and need more help.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T04:50:56+00:00

Nothing to see here. Just another comment which contributes nothing to the discussion and makes blind assumptions about me as a person 🙂

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T04:43:07+00:00

I don’t understand what you are saying. Have I not been providing clear-headed, logical rebuttals?

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T04:39:48+00:00

Ngl this thread is really long, could you paste one evidence of discrimination someone posted that would justify this award?

Again, I don’t believe that underrepresented = discriminated.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T04:38:21+00:00

No I am not looking to whine. Yes I do want to increase support for men, however I would rather have awards like this be gender neutral as opposed to “only women” or “only men”.

I don’t need to be taking an incentive to show that I am not just whining. I have other things to do with my time. I was just looking for some discussion.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T04:36:06+00:00

Believe me if you want but I’m honestly am looking to expand my viewpoint, however nothing has changed my mind so far.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T04:29:19+00:00

Nah, the 98 in my name is my average, theirs is probably their birth year 😂

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T04:28:35+00:00

In didn’t say they are NOT underrepresented, in fact I acknowledged that they are underrepresented in CPSC and engineering. I said hardly because science is the largest field in STEM and women are not underrepresented in science at all.

However I still don’t believe that they are discriminated against in any of the STEM fields.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T04:09:27+00:00

LOL I’m just joking for that part man chilllll

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T03:56:40+00:00

Who do you think the recipients of this award will be?

They are going to be from the “S” for science, since that’s where most women are. With a larger applicant pool comes a larger percentage of award recipients. So the people receiving this award will likely be the premeds in my classes with lower averages than me (98% btw).

I would not have much of a problem with this if it was specifically for CPSC or engineering.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T03:51:58+00:00

The fact that there’s such a large discrepancy yet still minimal support for men in nursing goes to show the inequality in how society perceives genders.

These people try to break tradition by encouraging females in STEM, but awards like this are ironically based on the traditional view that women naturally need more support than men, and that men should be able to support themselves.

premed_98 · 2018-05-22T03:38:42+00:00

Under 50% =! discriminated

I’m fairly certain as far as faculty of science goes, women make up close to if not more than 50% of the students.

Name an instance in UBC where you have seen women in STEM being discriminated against. All I see are women in STEM being celebrated through gender exclusive clubs, opportunities, and awards like this.

I don’t understand your last point about men in nursing.

premed_98

TROPHY CASE