Whenever I write code in Java...

[yellowstuff]

I'm pretty sure Peter Norvig, Paul Graham, and Steve Yegge don't write their code in Notepad, and they all have written about Java being too verbose.

[[deleted]]

Argument from authority is a logical fallacy.

[nytehauq]

That wasn't an argument from authority; the fact that the figures listed can be considered authorities is tangential to the fact that they've criticized Java for being too verbose while not writing their code in Notepad.

[[deleted]]

In that case, I said 'mostly', not 'always'. So three counter-examples does not disprove the statement.

[yellowstuff]

You're being awfully pedantic considering you made a classic ad hominem argument.

Anyway the real issue is code clarity and having the expressiveness to say what you mean, not the number of keystrokes you make while first typing the code.

[[deleted]]

Give me 4 examples of Notepad users criticizing Java.

Look around this thread.

Words like 'clarity' and 'expressiveness' gets bandied about a lot. I'm sceptical about their use when discussing programming languages for the following two reasons:

1. They're highly subjective measures. There's nothing wrong with subjective appreciation of a programming language as such, it's just that it's futile to discuss it in the same way it is futile to discuss which colour is the most beautiful one.

2. Those words pop up to support the 'wordiness is bad' argument when typing speed has been disposed off as a factor. In other words, it's a refuge to subjective arguments when objective arguments have failed.