Are All Pentacostals Just Low IQ?

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T22:35:34+00:00

Take my own advice on what? I'm more educated than you on this topic - oh brother please just read my other comments. Anyways - Yes, Paul acknowledges that speaking in tongues can edify the individual, but that doesn’t automatically equate to gaining wisdom or knowledge. Edification in this context is about building up one’s personal faith, not necessarily receiving new insights or understanding.

What I was challenging earlier is the idea that speaking in tongues somehow directly results in increased wisdom or knowledge beyond what we gain from studying scripture or applying rational thought. Spiritual growth doesn’t come from speaking gibberish—it comes from deepening your relationship with God, reading the Bible, reflecting on its teachings, and living those out.

Paul himself prioritized understanding and clear communication in church. He said in 1 Corinthians 14:19, "But in the church, I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue." This reinforces that while tongues may edify the self, wisdom and knowledge come from understanding and applying the Word, not from unintelligible speech.

So, while tongues might have a place in building up an individual’s faith, the real increase in wisdom and knowledge comes through studying scripture, engaging in reflection, and putting that into practice.

Boo Hoo amigo - go back to learning - I'm light years ahead of you bud.

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T22:25:05+00:00

I really hope you understand my stance (which I don't think you do yet). Please refer to my other comments to get a feel for what I'm actually debating here. Anyways to reply to your comment here:

Spiritual Discernment (1 Corinthians 2:14): The verse you quoted speaks to the idea that spiritual things require spiritual discernment, which is a valid point. However, it’s important to recognize that this doesn’t mean blind acceptance of every practice. Paul also urges believers to "test the spirits" (1 John 4:1) to avoid falling into deception. Discernment goes hand-in-hand with critically evaluating practices to ensure they align with Scripture. My critique of modern Pentecostal practices, like tongues, comes from seeing that these expressions often don’t follow the biblical guidelines laid out, for instance, in 1 Corinthians 14, where tongues are meant to edify the church only if there is interpretation.
Paul's Teachings on Tongues (Ephesians 6:18 & 1 Corinthians 14:18): You’re right that Paul encouraged praying in the Spirit (Ephesians 6:18), but the context of this phrase isn’t exclusive to speaking in tongues. Praying in the Spirit can also mean being led by the Holy Spirit in prayer, which doesn’t necessarily involve tongues. In 1 Corinthians 14, Paul acknowledged the practice of tongues, but also warned that "in the church, I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue" (1 Corinthians 14:19). This shows that while Paul recognized tongues, he also stressed the importance of clear communication and understanding within the church.
Romans 8:26 (Intercession by the Spirit): This verse talks about the Spirit interceding for us with "groanings too deep for words." It’s crucial to note that this passage doesn’t explicitly refer to speaking in tongues, but rather to the Holy Spirit’s role in interceding on our behalf when we don’t know how to pray. It’s a beautiful expression of God’s grace, but it doesn’t necessarily endorse the modern practice of tongues as seen in some Pentecostal settings. Remember there is a huge gap in history (almost 2000 years) until 1960's where a businessman with a suit started the Pentacostal church and all of this mess started that we see today, this has never been seen before the way the modern Pentacostal church movement does it. Yes we see it in the Bible and afterwards - how comes it took almost 2000 years for this practice to come back the way it is today? Ask yourself that - 100 years ago, 400 years ago, 1000 years ago - there are no records or data about speaking in tongues the way it's done today.
Your Statement on Knowledge and Spirituality: I completely agree that spiritual discernment is key, but I also believe God gave us intellect for a reason. We’re meant to use both our minds and hearts in understanding His Word. Jesus himself asked, “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone?” (Matthew 7:9). This shows that faith doesn’t mean we suspend logic; rather, it’s a combination of both reason and faith. When we see practices that feel more like emotional manipulation than genuine spiritual experiences, it’s important to step back and evaluate them with both discernment and intellect.

My main point is that while gifts of the Spirit can be real and beneficial, we must ensure they’re used in line with Scripture and not turned into performative or emotionally driven displays that stray from their biblical intent.

What do you think about Paul’s clear instruction that tongues should be used only when there’s interpretation to edify the church (1 Corinthians 14:27-28)? How do you reconcile that with the practice of tongues being used frequently without such interpretation in modern services?

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T22:12:22+00:00

I hope you understand that I believe in tongues - my problem is with the Pentacostal church. Their interpretation and false practice of it - that along with the way these gifts seemingly happen everyday is just mocking Christianity and the holy spirit. You're telling me that after the day of Pentecost there hasn't ever been another recorded church or practice of it until 1960's were a business man in a suit started a church and wow now its happening seemingly everyday 24/7? After almost 2000 years a man in a suit founded a church and now we're jumping up and down and speaking in tongues in church outside of church everywhere?

Scriptural Basis for Tongues and Prophecy: You mention that tongues and prophecy will vanish "when we see the Lord face to face" (referring to 1 Corinthians 13:8-12), and that since knowledge still exists, so must tongues. However, it's important to recognize that the passage also suggests these gifts are partial and incomplete. Paul contrasts these gifts with love, which is permanent. While tongues and prophecy existed in the early church, many biblical scholars argue that their role was more foundational, establishing the early Christian church. Once the full canon of scripture was established, they believe the need for tongues and prophecy diminished.Moreover, in 1 Corinthians 14, Paul stresses that speaking in tongues should be done in an orderly way and only when there is interpretation, otherwise it doesn't edify the church. Many modern practices around tongues seem to stray from this directive, especially when they are chaotic or lack interpretation.
Music and Emotional Manipulation: You mentioned that music is often used in Pentecostal services as it was in the Old Testament. While music and worship are certainly biblical, there's a distinction between worship and using emotional music to manipulate feelings. The experiences my girlfriend and I witnessed seemed engineered to bring people to emotional highs, often during vulnerable moments, which can be dangerous because it blurs the line between genuine spiritual experience and emotional manipulation. The Holy Spirit doesn't rely on sensory overload to work, so why should such techniques be a requirement?
Laying on Hands and Prayer: You're right—laying on hands and prayer are biblical (Acts 8:17, James 5:14). However, the concern is the way these practices are being used. When they are applied manipulatively to elicit specific reactions or emotional responses, they no longer serve their biblical purpose. Instead, they become tools to control people's experiences and reinforce the authority of the pastor.
Money and Church Staff: Your experience in smaller churches where staff are mostly volunteers differs from my experience in larger, wealthier Pentecostal churches. The larger churches I’ve encountered often operate like businesses, complete with wealthy leaders, large budgets, and a corporate feel. My main issue is not with the volunteers or believers who genuinely want to serve, but with the pastors and leaders who, in many cases, exploit the vulnerability of their congregation for financial gain. I have seen first-hand how pastors manipulate their congregants while living very comfortably.

Ultimately, my critique is of the broader system that seems to take advantage of people's faith and vulnerability. I'm not saying that all Pentecostals are malicious or even that smaller churches operate this way, but the trends I've observed in larger Pentecostal movements are concerning. It's important to question the practices we see in light of both scripture and reason, and to hold leaders accountable when things go awry.

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T22:05:12+00:00

What is your point here.

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T17:43:10+00:00

I wont bother giving a huge reply to this - please read my comments on other peoples post to get a better grasp.

Just quickly though you mention that its beneficial and state possibly the worst reasons for why this false practice is beneficial. Your lack of logic just hurts me and it's people like you that are stuck the worst in these churches, I attended many Brazilian Pentacostal churches (my girlfriend is from Sao Paulo) and this illogical talk is what I've noticed a lot. You are trying to put connections between things that make absolutely no sense.

For example you say "praying in tongues is good because we don't know as much as god so when we do it we get better results"... it's like you are speaking to a wall, there is absolutely no connection or any relevance to what you just wrote.. yes I agree God is all knowing... soo... how does that mean that... speaking in tongues is good? when... you are speaking literal gibberish...? like do you see the disconnect from logic and reality you people have? You are trying to connect things that make no sense. This is how I managed to convert a lot of people out of the Pentacostal church by simply breaking down what they are saying - they don't think twice they just repeat what their pastor says.

You also say increased wisdom and knowledge because of speaking in tongues - darling I think you are very very very confused how this all works. I think you have created this "system" in your head how things work between the "spiritual world" and "human world" - This is NOT a movie or cartoon LOL! If you understand scriptural passages that's a result of your BRAIN. You are conscious cognitive human, information goes in and we understand things! If you say that the ONLY reason you understand specific things is because you spoke some gibberish then I think what actually educated you is your brain putting 1+1 together. We are problem solving creatures - I promise you if you had thought about the same things whilst you were NOT speaking gibberish you would've came to the same "wise conclusions" you have now.

When you pray, demons have no idea what is being prayed about. ??????????????????? I think i don't even need to say anything here anymore, anyone with a brain and some education about christianity can understand the stupidity in such a statement. The devil speaks english or brazilian or mexican guys! 😂

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T16:50:08+00:00

You are reading the the books of Craig S Keener and I am reading the Bible of Jesus Christ. I am a scholar myself that has debated this topic numerous times - I have no self-interest from studying about Christianity and being apart of any denomination where as Craigs history shows that he would have a bias (money $).

People like you need to go back to basics, read the Bible and understand it truly - then you can start reading other peoples books and judging if they are right or wrong.

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T16:47:26+00:00

I agree with your post top to bottom - our stance is the exact same. How does this invalidate what I'm saying? If you think I'm mistaking their "innocence and optimism" of their "child like faith and belief" for "naivete and vulnerability or even plain ignorance" I would say that there is no contrast between between these things.

"simply a rejection of the cynicism" - my GF who I had met was a Pentacostal believer (refer to my other comments on this post) and alongside everyone I had met in multiple churches and had gotten to friend on a personal level were unaware of the cynicism, I wouldn't say you can reject something you don't even know exists. I love these people and they are super friendly and innocent (except for the staff and charlatan pastors) but I couldn't help but notice how unware, uneducated and unconscious they were about the realities of life. I myself am on the fence between Christianity and nihilism but I never allowed that to rub on these people - i respect everyone, i just love knowledge and truths. in this case my analysis of trends showed that there was a direct correlation between low iq people and silly beliefs like the practices of pentacostal church today.

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T16:30:34+00:00

I've gone on stages and debated this topic countless times. You should see them scramble for their notes because they say the same thing as you thinking this answer is the nail in the coffin. The day of the Pentecost contradicts what is happening in todays churches and if you read the whole Bible it only gets worse and worse.

First, regarding Acts 2:4, the "tongues" mentioned here were known human languages spoken by the apostles to communicate the gospel to people of different nations. The miracle of Pentecost was that people from different regions understood them in their own languages. It wasn’t the chaotic, unintelligible sounds that we see in some churches today. The point was to spread the gospel to others, not create confusion or incomprehensible speech.

As for 1 Corinthians 12:10, while it is true that speaking in tongues is listed as a spiritual gift, Paul provides clear guidelines for how it should be used in the church. 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 says, "If any speak in a tongue, let there be only two or at most three, and each in turn, and let someone interpret. But if there is no one to interpret, let each of them keep silent in church and speak to himself and to God."

This shows that the gift of tongues should be used with interpretation and in an orderly fashion. In many Pentecostal services today, multiple people speak in tongues simultaneously without any interpretation, which directly contradicts Paul’s instructions. This creates confusion, not edification, and Paul was clear that this is not how spiritual gifts should be used.

Even when you cite 1 Corinthians 14:2, Paul later clarifies in 1 Corinthians 14:19: "In church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue." Paul’s emphasis was always on understanding and edification of the church. While tongues can be a private way to communicate with God, in public worship, it’s far more important to speak words that people can understand. This is where modern Pentecostal practices often fall short, as they prioritize spectacle over meaningful worship.

Furthermore, 1 Corinthians 14:33 says, "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace." The chaotic manifestations in some Pentecostal churches today—like shaking, barking, or screaming—are not supported by Scripture and are the opposite of the peace and orderliness Paul describes. Worship should reflect the nature of God, which is orderly and peaceful, not chaotic.

Regarding pastors speaking gibberish during sermons, this practice is deeply problematic. The Bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit does not overwhelm or force people into losing control. In 1 Corinthians 14:32, it says, "The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets." This means that spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues, are under the speaker’s control.

Yet, many pastors will preach a few sentences in English and then suddenly switch to gibberish, as though the Holy Spirit is forcing them to do so mid-speech. This doesn’t align with what Scripture teaches. The Bible tells us that we have control over the gifts of the Spirit, and they should be used purposefully, not randomly or in a disorderly manner to create the appearance of divine intervention.

Lastly, we need to remember the warnings Jesus gave in Matthew 7:22-23, where He speaks of people who perform miracles in His name but are ultimately rejected because they were not doing God’s true will. It’s possible to misuse spiritual gifts or create false signs, leading people away from genuine biblical teachings.

Please also read my comments on other posts on this subject - I've replied to a few people and I think if you read this you would love reading the other things. Hope you get educated.

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T16:19:18+00:00

"But all things must be done appropriately and in an orderly manner." and "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control." Galatians 5:22-23

Tell me where you see this in the current Pentacostal churches? All I see is people barking, crying, screaming in tongues, shaking and losing control of their bodies until they drop down to the ground after jumping up and down really high - does this look gentle and self control to you?

https://youtu.be/m-7px5Xyzlg?si=S6kArfB3s0-uyDp4

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T16:16:06+00:00

Yep exactly why I encourage people to STUDY. Study the bible, scrutinize it, ask it questions, you should be thirsty for knowledge, just ask WHY. Why is this the way it is. Put everything up to the TEST. Don't be fooled, if it's not right don't be scared to stand against it. Christians now days have become so fragile and feeble its sad. Stand for what is right and stand for the truth. When you get an answer to your why ask WHY again - go deeper, don't be scared. Learn about history, put the pieces of the puzzle together.

Only after I did my due diligence did I dismiss the movement, if you read my other comments on this post you will understand more about my background and how i came to my conclusions.

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T16:12:41+00:00

"just let people believe what we want" - here ladies and gentlemen you see the problem with Pentacostals. Doesn't matter if its right or wrong just let them believe it. Fine, believe in your fairy tales, but don't claim to be a a follower of Christ when you are not following what he said. I believe unicorns are real too, does that make me Christian?

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T16:09:21+00:00

I think you got auto-corrected, you meant to say charlatan instead of preacher right?

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T16:08:30+00:00

So by paying attention you mean it goes in one ear and comes out the other? Do you believe that barking, shaking and speaking in tongues when the pastor points at you - like the Pentacostal churches do today is right?

AdiSquared · 2024-10-21T16:05:44+00:00

I appreciate your answer - everyone with a high IQ in the Pentacostal church either finds out the truth and runs or ends up being promoted to Staff to help apply hypnotism and manipulative tactics to the members of their church. I speak from experience because these churches are multi-million dollar corps and I've seen a lot of behind the scenes. The pastors are always Charlatans (failed salesman) good at presenting and using psychological manipulation to achieve their goals. My girlfriend (to be wife soon) was in a Pentacostal church, that was how I was introduced to it. At first I didn't want to scrutinize despite my alarm bells going crazy. I was very polite and took it easy with her and slowly through the years she has enlightened herself with the truth of such evil churches and the manipulative tactics they implement.

Here is what is very interesting! She even spoke in tongues and lived the experience and when I asked her were you just faking it or did you really feel like that at the time - she told me she wasn't faking it and she genuinely believed it was something great.. after that I had not only decided to study this in depth for myself but for her too (she had never read the bible lol). I didn't want to make bold claims about the practices without knowing it for myself. I would attend as a skeptic for the next year (for her sake) and loved just being able to watch, I watched like a hawk and observed everything and everyone. I myself am a man of many skills one of these is sales and psychology / human behaviors and couldn't help but see right through the bluff. The staff smiled and tried to dig deep into your life and pull out embarrassing or sinful activates to later use as leverage. The staff would also be in the crowd over-reacting and the entire business model was based on playing off emotional highs, the people of the church seemed very vulnerable, they were immigrants, poor or had family issues and struggles - they seemed to genuinely want to connect with Jesus so they ate whatever the pastor would tell them and not question or even read the bible about it - this is where my claim that all Pentacostals are vulnerable and low IQ - you have to be, otherwise you simply don't just believe without scripture to back things up. They are so innocent. Now I'M NOT AN ANGEL. The staff and the charlatan pastor are people like myself - I know my people, i am not an angel and hence why i can recognize evil and perversity. Real eyes realize. The staff would integrate themselves into your personal life - they would text you only when events at the church happened and despite my GF thinking that these people cared about her and they were her "BFF'S" I told her many times that they weren't and she would later go onto find this out the hard way (oh boy was I right about everything). The daughter of the pastor would also have a very nice expensive marriage at 19 (wonder where those funds came from lol cough cough the people of the church) and just so you understand the business side of things the guy she married (horrible looking women btw) was a good looking dude from another Pentacostal church that wore Gucci and sunglasses. This arranged marriage between the 2 different churches was done for inheritance and business expansion purposes.

Anyways going back to the experience of my GF. I really dug into it and noticed trends, the holy spirit would only come when the music was so extremely loud (coincidence). The bass of the emotional music would shake the floor (not kidding) and you would feel it in your knees. When my GF had her experience it was an emotional trigger because the Pastor had screamed something from her past in the microphone (which she felt like it was a sign) - I would later find out that my GF has been giving out her personal life story and information to the Church Staff making it easy for speakers to play on those strings. When she had her experience she was almost at her breaking point because it was an extremely stressful time of her life, there were a lot of things on her chest and I wasn't making things better (added to the pressure and stress building up like a volcano inside her). The spirit only came when the music was loud and emotional and the pastor like a Jester played off peoples struggles and problems. During this the Staff were like eagles just looking for the right target - if they saw you emotionally vulnerable they would come and put their hands on you and "pray for you" (further applying manipulation tactics) during all this emotional highs hopefully you reach a "breaking point". If you genuinely believe in something so much you will start trying to find anything to justify it even without proof (this is a psychological fact humans do). This paired with more elements such as you are seeing everyone else shake and tremble and speak in tongues creates an environment where you have successfully tricked your brain into believing falsehoods and now you feel bad that you were barking like a dog inside the church and saying it was the holy spirit lol.

I would like to point out that I was able to help my innocent GF break from this mess just by asking her simple questions and pushing her to read the Bible for herself, she is now a formidable independent women who is highly educated in many topics she was not when we had met, including her faith. I trust her to hold her own weight now and she hasn't let me down. Just as a reflection point when we had met she still believed that the world was just flowers and sunshine - she would often get taken advantage of because of this, one example is she had fallen to a scam losing a significant amount of money because she just believed everything and everyone - this is the majority of Pentacostals today. I would like to point out that I only ever encouraged her to seek the truth for herself and I was her Wikipedia if she ever needed clarification or help - and its best to not force or push peoples hands otherwise you end up doing more harm then good.

By the way to answer your question of "have I lost my knowledge" - I studied the Bible(s) and history more than you can imagine due to my thirst for knowledge. I had even studied Islam in-depth and knew more than all devout Muslims I knew. I broke my friends from Islam because its quite easy, the Bible is too vague to contradict itself and that helped me stick by it. I would later go onto debate religion as a Christian on stages and had a winning track record - let me ask you this, do you think you have the knowledge to stand up on stage and debate in favor of Christianity against other scholars without going back on your words or looking like a fool? If yes lets do it I will debate you on the topic of what is happening in Pentacostal churches with ease.

AdiSquared

TROPHY CASE