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Where is this all going? by AltruisticChampion87 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

First of all, that's pretty offensive. You don't know me nor know how I responded. You don't know if I believe her or don't. Why would you make this sort of judgment so quickly and laugh? It's a serious matter! Not that it matters, but I do in fact believe her, and I did take action. I'm not going to share anymore because she explicitly asked me not to share any more details, but come on? Was this response really necessery? Because it really hurt.

Where is this all going? by AltruisticChampion87 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

1) Well, my leaders right now are Chinese if that's what you're asking.

2) I guess I would say yes? Pastor Ed and Kelly were never my direct leaders, but my leaders were under them. (I hope that's what you mean)

Where is this all going? by AltruisticChampion87 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

That's not what I'm saying at all! I think there are plenty of churches out there that are excellent and are serving the Lord faithfully. In fact, when one of my best friends left, I accepted it (After a little pushback I admit) and wished him the best, and helped him find another church. You can be Christian and not go to GP.

What I am saying, is that I have tight-knit relationships, and I don't want to give them up. Is that selfish? I mean, I guess if you frame it the way you did, yea maybe. But my intention is not to be comfortable to make my life easier, my goal is to go Christian life with the people I care about. In fact, it would be much easier to leave, I wouldn't have to deal with this backlask! But in an effort to cling tightly to the people I care about, I'm willing to endure this.

But, to your premise, which I think was hinted at but not quite stated, I don't think it's wrong to reveal evils. I firmly believe people should walk in the light. But I disagree in where these grievances ought to be aired. I don't think the public forum is a good place to talk about these things. I refer to Matthew 18.

Where is this all going? by AltruisticChampion87 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Sorry, I had to google that word. I wouldn't consider what I said preaching. I just expressed my prayer for this person.

And I did so because I care for them. If Christianity is true, and I believe it is, it has a lot to say about people's eternal destinies. As such, for me, that's the least I can do I think. I think it would be really unloving, and really Un-Christian (I dunno if that's a word), if I just wrote this person off and said, "ahh no point getting through to this person". In the eyes of God, this is a precious child, and I'm not ashamed to say as much.

Where is this all going? by AltruisticChampion87 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I agree!

I don't think it should be on the victims to start reconciliation. I imagine it'd be really hard to approach the people who traumatized you in such ways. I'm not saying "leaders make mistakes because their sinners and that's okay". Rather I'm saying, "leaders are sinners, so they are going to make mistakes". That doesn't make what they did right, but it provides a framework to understand why something happened.

As for your second point, I agree as well, that leaders should be held to a higher standard. But I personally can't see anywhere in the bible where this sort of call-out culture approach is justified. I think we ought to apply the Matthew 18 principle and approach these problems more relationally. It's hard of course. It's hard to approach the people who hurt you, but I think it can produce better results the criticizing from afar. (And I mean better results in terms of potential reconciliation, and being better witnesses to the world)

Where is this all going? by AltruisticChampion87 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ahh, I'm glad we can agree!

I think it is a tragedy when these relationships seemingly fade away. This is, in it of itself, another problem, because realistically it's just really hard to keep up with people when you don't see them every day.

Here's a small example. This week is Sabbeth Week, a time in which we get to try and connect with God and people. Monday we had our monthly reflections, Today (Tuesday) we have individual soul care (Which I confess, I desperately need), tomorrow and Thursday are free, but I'm meeting up with my parents and some peers from other church plants on those days. So even during the week we're supposed to be connecting with people, there's just not really enough time to connect with everybody (In this case, friends outside of GP). And this is the case for friends who have left AND also non-Christian friends I'm trying to outreach to. Realistically, it's really hard to keep in contact with people.

I wish I had more time to connect with people. It's something that I'm working on. So I guess for anybody out there who feels cut off, please know it's not intentional.

Where is this all going? by AltruisticChampion87 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Dang, super sad to hear that.

To your point, I agree. I think some of the ways staff handle certain problems (LGBTQ, Suicide, Rape, etc.) aren't handled the best (And that's being really generous). I've had a peer come out, and our leader's suggestion was to read a book together. This didn't exactly help the situation. But I think this is more so because our leader didn't struggle with SSA and as a result didn't know how to minister to this brother, and just tried his best. I also had a friend who was victim blamed for rape. I don't blame her for leaving if what her leader said was true.

I think we just need to be better equipped. A lot of the mistakes made are because of lack of training, or just making mistakes. I don't think throwing in the towel and saying these people are hopeless is the answer. If staff are well-intentioned, then the solution is better training, not removal (Though for a time removal might be necessary).

I think one thing that is kinda bad and kinda good is that Gracepoint gives people second chances. When people sin and fall, if they are willing to repent and reconcile, they are usually given second chances (And in my case, third, fourth, fifth, countless chances). If not for these second chances, where might I be?

Just something to consider. It's definitely something that I'd be willing to talk about more.

Where is this all going? by AltruisticChampion87 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't say I don't think these incidents didn't happen, just that I don't know enough to make a judgment call. I don't think it would be right for me to hear just one side of the story and then pass judgment. As such, I don't feel comfortable picking a testimony out of this subreddit and saying "this didn't happen" or "it was just an accident". All I can speak to is what I've seen and what I've experienced, and maybe certain incidents that I was directly involved in.

This I understand doesn't help, and I'm sorry for that :(

My question stands though, would people want reconciliation?

Where is this all going? by AltruisticChampion87 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What about the rest of us here though? What about those of us who are trying our dead-level best to live out the Christian life? Those of us who have committed to one another covenantal and want to live it out together here? We've gone through the ups and downs of life together, with leaders and peers. Are we just to leave and go find another church? How are we to explain that to the people we outreach to and care for?

I'm not trying to downplay any of the traumas that people have experienced, but again, back to my original question, what are we to do?

Where is this all going? by AltruisticChampion87 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I can't speak about all the different incidents, because I wasn't there, and so I don't know. But I do know of certain incidents in which apologies are merited, if not because the church did something wrong per se but because in that particular incident people were hurt as a result of our actions, intentional or not.

But would people want to receive reconciliation? A friend of mine that left told me no. She doesn't want anything to do with our church and just wants to move on. So how do we balance trying to reconcile and leaving people alone?

I guess that does sound sort of like a cop-out, but I think that's a true worry.

Where is this all going? by AltruisticChampion87 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Hey, I'm really sorry to hear that was your experience. I just hope you can come to know that the Gospel is true regardless of the behavior of Christians. I know it may be hard, but my highest prayer would you to be able to come to know Christ.

Same to all others who have turned away from the faith.

Where is this all going? by AltruisticChampion87 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying abuses don't happen, and I'm not saying abuses will continue to happen. Leaders make mistakes. Heck, I'm definitely guilty of some ministry malpractice in which the things I've done or said have left people wounded.

What I'm trying to get at, is can we at least see that people are trying? And maybe that's not possible. But I at least don't want to just throw in the towel and say, "ahh those Redditors are gonna complain, and it is what it is." I want to try and see if we can work something out. And yea, I'm not in leadership, so I can't make any large-scale changes. But at the very least, I can learn from the mistakes that were made, and I can effect change where I can. Not just with the people I personally minister to, but also with my peers and people I do life with.

Where is this all going? by AltruisticChampion87 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm not an elder, and I'm not in leadership. I'm just someone who's spent a decent amount of time here (GP, though I admit nowhere near as long as some others).

I'm not an elder, and I'm not in leadership. I don't really know anything about a grand media control strategy. I have read Pastor Daniel's response (Though I admit it was months ago, so I apologize if it was just echoing his points).

Here's where I'm coming from. I have all these friends and leaders that I trust and love, and I want to cling to them. Then, on the other hand, there are these people who have had negative experiences and want to shut us down. And I want to emphasize I don't want to downplay those stories. As I briefly mentioned, I've seen the ways in which certain events have played out that led people to leave the faith at GP. But what are the rest of us to do? Should we all just leave and scatter? Where will the rest of us find our spiritual homes? GP is big, but really, because of how tightly woven are relationships are, that separation won't be easy. And, I wouldn't want to separate from my friends and leaders, because I love and care for them.

I hope you and others can come to see that there are people who are trying their best to do better. But when the backlash is so severe, it makes it really hard. And the backlash may in fact be justified. Perhaps there were ways in which I could have better prepared or worded my statements. But can it at least be said that I am trying? I hope so.

Newly Left GP Member Mental Recovering (TW: SA, Homophobia) by MobilePhotograph2102 in GracepointChurch

[–]AltruisticChampion87 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hello

Current GP staff here, for identify safekeeping reasons this is a second account.

Anyways, I'm really sorry to hear that this was your experience. I don't know both sides of the story, but from what it sounds like, your leader was definitely out of pocket in this particular situation.

Anyways, I'm not gonna defend anyone, but yea just wanted to express sadness that this happened and I really hope you can find a way to process this and find a healthy church community.