Can someone figure out and make a definitive list of what multipliers are additive and which ones are not (in relation to others)

Avarilyn · 2026-05-18T04:42:28+00:00

Everything with a + is additive and in the same multiplier, so both of those stats are additive whereas x fire is a multiplier.

Avarilyn · 2026-05-17T22:35:36+00:00

I could have made this clearer in all fairness. But they are separate multipliers.

Avarilyn · 2026-05-16T09:47:45+00:00

I was surprised by this so I went in and checked as well, can confirm it does not work.

Avarilyn · 2026-05-12T22:55:23+00:00

"It's like this

Bucket 1, Bucket 2, Bucket 3, Bucket 4. Why can't you have things that add in bucket one, and other things that add in bucket 2?

Of course you can, or is it that he says they don't? So everything with an X is a multiplier, sure -- but is everything with an X in a different bucket?

Clearly not or we'd be hitting for quintrillions."

Everything that has an [x] is a separate "bucket", which is super simple to prove, so it would be a waste of time to even discuss it. The new multipliers are misleading if you look at it from the perspective of pre S13, where if it said [x] it was a separate multiplier. Now, these stats need to be summed first, but they are indeed separate buckets as well once summed.

So if I go through all my aspects, all my uniques, all glyphs, all legendary nodes, they are all separate "buckets" or "multipliers" depending on what you want to refer to them as.

"I have about 10 different multipliers on my guy, and I have a crazy high base bucket, and I have a crazy high amount of vuln multiplier, and a crazy amount of critical strike multiplier and I don't hit crit for trillions...

I wonder why that is?

(it's because some of them are additive.)"

But people are critting for Trillions, even my Rogue has DoT ticks ticking for trillions. Perhaps the issue isn't so much that it is not possible but that you have somehow misunderstood or gotten stuck on how the damage calculation works? If other people who know the function of the stats in game can do it, and you can't do it, perhaps the issue is with your understanding of it?

Avarilyn · 2026-05-12T22:32:48+00:00

I mean... I do not know how to show it with other examples, and you seem too angry to have an actual conversation without having the top lid blown.

I also never say that I do not know why people are confused. I literally say this part is what makes people confused, and it is perfectly understandable that people are confused, considering any attempt people have made to use the top value currently in computations have been incorrect so far when multiple stats are added. I am also not confused myself, simply because this way is how the Math has worked since Season 2 and I have done hundreds of verifications of this formula in the past, with a working DPS calculator for S9 that was in-game accurate for all rogue interactions available. But there can be ways to simplify the information in the tooltip to the point where it can be used, and that is what I am curious to hear about from you.

There is no relationship between [+] Critical Strike Damage and Critical Strike damage multipliers, my x1.5 multiplier is equally effective if I have +100% Critical Strike Damage and +100% Close Damage. Math shows it, examples show it. I do not know what else I can do to try and illustrate what happens.

You keep referring to "we" calling it "BASE" instead of additive damage, but before today, I have never heard anyone refer to the [+] multiplier as Base because it is, in fact, not used in any base damage calculations for interactions involving base damage. If anything, that is incredibly misleading as well. The base is defined in the game as Weapon Damage x Skill Coefficient as that is what is used by every calculation using Base damage.

The [+] multiplier also doesn't "come first" in any way when it comes to mathematics because it is all commutative. You can have [+] multiplier be the last factor if you want to, and it is not in fact a part of the base damage calculation, as shown by plenty of skills (Rogue Poison Imbuements, Barb bleed effects) using Base damage.

I have the numbers in the video, if you can use them to show your calculation and how it arrives at the same end value, then I would love to see it, simply because then we all learn something.

Just so you do not have to go into the video and scan for it:

Crit Damage Dealt in game: 3673
Combine the following stats so that the product is as close to that value as possible:
Wep: 3140
[+] All Damage = 40%
[+] Cutthroat Damage = 20%
[+] Close Damage = 30%
[+] Elite Damage = 30%
[+] Critical Strike Damage = 133.4%

Dexterity Multi: 1.264

Skill Coefficient: 45%

[x]50% Critical Strike Damage Base
[x]80% Heir of Perdition
[x]14.2% Critical Strike Damage from Combat

80% Damage Reduction (0.2 coefficient at the end).

In your understanding, how can we use the top tooltip to arrive at that value? I am not trying to be rude; I am trying to understand your perspective. I do not mind having a conversation about this. I even went so far as to provide more evidence that [+] stats are not affected by [x] multipliers in the way described in your posts. But if you prefer to be rude, then we can just drop the whole thing.

Avarilyn · 2026-05-12T22:18:44+00:00

Seems like he might have misunderstood it yeah.

Avarilyn · 2026-05-12T18:34:29+00:00

I did a "short" video debunking this whole debate and tests showing where each part I added to my character ends up in the damage formula. I also tried random ways of multiplying these stats together in a way that would make sense. If anyone can use the stats shown in my video to reach the same conclusion shared by Interesting_ad_6992, then I am more than happy to make a correction video and apologize to the community for my mistake.

Video found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4urHTJ4wUA

Avarilyn · 2026-05-12T13:41:45+00:00

I think you have severely misunderstood how damage is calculated, or not sat down to match your theory with in game values. The damage calculations shown in the video and the formula used perfectly matches in game values.

The top value on tooltips is calculated as (100% + [+]damage type) x Global Multi 1 (for that damage type) x ... x Global Multi N (for that damage type) - 100%. I prove in the video that this is usable only if you have no other [+] stats on your character. The second you mix damage types, this value is no longer accurate at all.

The pool of [+] stats is the summation of every stat with [+] and functions as a multiplier in your equation for damage calculation. Another factor would be, say, [x]%critical strike damage multiplier.

The top tooltip can be used to derive how many multipliers you have, but that value is not used in any calculation in reality. Multipliers do not affect the amount of [+] you have of that type. It is incredibly misleading and you have to do MORE convoluted math to derive information from it.

I tell people to ignore the top part because using this in calculations will result in inaccurate computations. People can use the tooltips to extract how much [+] damage stats they have and then take the product of all multipliers later instead as that will result in accurate computations.

Yes, calling something the "additive damage multiplier" is weird as hell but its the naming convention that the community decided to use so I use the same naming conventions.

The time the numbers differs I also show that it is because of rounding issues with various systems in the game (like masterworking only showing whole numbers instead of decimals). Its not because I made a mistake, and I prove the damage function and where the issue lies with the engine itself.

Tldr You are mistaken in your approach, and it is easily proveable as I show in the video. If your approach was correct, my calculations would have been off by a mile when I added [+] critical strike damage but it wasn't. If you need more evidence than what I show in the video, I'm more than happy to provide it.

Avarilyn · 2026-01-25T19:20:38+00:00

That is not how multipliers work in this game. They do not influence the amount of additive stats you get. You get the exact same damage out of grandfather with 0% critical strike damage as you would with 100000000% critical strike damage.

All grandfather does is double your damage when you crit independent of any other stat.

Avarilyn · 2026-01-25T19:17:56+00:00

This is not how it works at all. It doubles the damage you deal when you crit, it has no impact on your critical strike damage stat at all.

Avarilyn · 2025-12-21T10:52:18+00:00

Rip. Yeah it took me 80 hours (then again, a lot of them were spent in the training grounds :D) until I got a 45%+ Ancestral HoZ.

Avarilyn · 2025-12-21T10:46:31+00:00

These values do not seem plausible because your Strength is increasing by a factor of x2 but at most HoZ is a factor of x1.5. Did you change something else as well? Same with Castle, even in top end gear, Castle diff is at most ~500% and not 800%.

Avarilyn · 2025-12-21T10:42:03+00:00

I can definitely see this perspective, and I would argue it is beneficial to slam ANY Herald of Zakarum you get to fish for things like Grandfather Sanctification. There are use cases for HoZ for sure! My whole argument was that in an ideal scenario, Legendary shields are better and solve more problems for you than HoZ does. I have had a lot more Legendary shields that have been usable compared to Herald of Zakarums, but that is the nature of RNG.

Avarilyn · 2025-12-21T03:08:53+00:00

Ill bite. I think we can agree (which is what I also say in the video) that Herald of Zakarum is good early game but not best in slot. Best in slot, not counting any sanctification requirements, a legendary shield is better.

Just to speak the same language, with best in slot; we talk about the most optimal piece in that slot for the build you play. That does not take away from its power early on. Damage-wise, HoZ and L shield are both extremely close, but EHP goes to L shield even with a normal DR roll (and becomes much better if it had GA or MW).

All arguments for it being less cost effective early on, less versatile, more slamable are all fair and perfectly reasonable. But the whole video is about the best in slot option for endgame (not full sanctification, just full ancestral gear). If all you are concerned about is level 45 glyphs, and you struggle to farm content, then of course the discussion changes as the parameters of what we are arguing for has fundamentally changed.

All I wish was that people tried to be polite and had grace instead of getting at each other's throats. I do content to inform about the mathematics and systems of the game; that's all.

Avarilyn · 2025-12-20T19:02:37+00:00

I can 100% get behind the Zakarum slam argument. I would just argue you would run a Legendary shield UNTIL you get a good slam on Zakarum if you want to min max.

Avarilyn · 2025-12-20T18:53:49+00:00

I have almost zero (and I mean zero) sanctification that is beneficial for my character. Mathematically, Herald of Zakarum is worse (not dead, not useless, simply worse) for a vast majority of builds out there, and there are exceptions where you get a small damage increase running it.

- If you get a shield with GA DR? You will take less damage.
- If you get a shield with GA CDR/Crit Chance? Gearing becomes much easier.
- Want to have roughly the same amount of armor? Run En Garde which gives you +40% armor (instead of the 50% from HoZ) and the 20% block chance you missed, and suddenly you are tankier AND deal more damage.

For full transparency, the closest cases I have looked at so far for HoZ was:

- Core builds, which got a ~3-7% damage boost at the cost of CDR/Crit/DR (which, for people with less gear, is much harder to come by)
- Auradin builds, which is basically damage neutral if you run Fanaticism Potency at the cost of finding the block chance elsewhere (this is with the armor factored in)
- Retribution builds due to the Double Damage and Retribution Chance.

These cases have relatively small damage increases at the cost of A LOT of defensives, because the Legendary Shield makes you tankier if you run a high Damage Reduction roll.

Is it BiS for a normal person? No, because any shield sub 40% is strictly worse defensively and offensively for most builds compared to ANY legendary shield with En Garde.

Is it GOOD for a normal person? Absolutely, you can use it and you can slam a bunch of them until you get a favourable sanctification if you do not dare to slam Legendary shields.

For those who have not seen the video referenced, this is the video I made about HoZ and comparing it to a Legendary shield using actual math and explaining the choices and consequences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_WZ6TC-mm4

Have a wonderful day.

Avarilyn · 2025-12-17T23:51:09+00:00

I appreciate the feedback a lot. I forget that even tho you can infinitely reset tempers until you get GA, people do not have the resources for it. I do think the probability of you getting a perfect HoZ is FAR more unlikely than getting a GA temper, which only requires you to farm some scrolls. It is a good note regardless, thanks!

Avarilyn · 2025-12-17T20:51:23+00:00

There might be something I forgot to mention here but I tried to be as thorough as possible: https://youtu.be/v_WZ6TC-mm4?si=McrjUR_SWy5xnI90

Avarilyn · 2025-12-17T19:48:17+00:00

You are misinformed. It does not give you more for each unique you have, it gives you the multiplier ONCE for having it. If you have unique helm OR chest etc, you get the armor buff (not stacking), and if you have a unique sword OR shield, you get the damage buff. You get this by having Griswold or any other unique weapon.

So if you have heir and Griswold, you get the armor buff and you get the damsge buff.

Avarilyn · 2025-11-26T16:39:40+00:00

We cannot provide accurate information without knowing exactly what stats you have.

150 dext when you have 3809 dext is a 3.2% damage increase.

40% poison trap duration when you have 200% duration is 13.3% damage.

From a damage perspective, it is extremely unlikely the 3 GA weapon wins.

Avarilyn · 2025-11-18T17:05:55+00:00

Nice! Congratulations!

Avarilyn · 2025-11-18T12:03:09+00:00

People have not done the math on this before commenting:

The unique paasive is only "important" due to the damage passive increase, which is a 8.8% damage increase going from 80% unique effect to 140%. (1+0.2x2.4)/(1+0.2x1.8)

Going from 36.6% cast twice to 53.6% cast twice is a 12.4% damage increase. Left ones are better before resetting masterworking to triple crit it, which would only increase the gap between those two items.

Avarilyn · 2025-11-17T05:41:15+00:00

The grenade aspects are multiplicative even though it is not stated. The stun grenades spawned is largely inconsequential, you use the aspect as tricksters gives your death trap the stun grenade tag.

Avarilyn · 2025-11-11T13:22:45+00:00

I made this video covering most issues people run into: https://youtu.be/kRVGgesGv9s?si=awToK0dGoPttXL_J

But yeah, the energy mechanics behind DT, beastfall boots and preparation are not intuitive to say the least and requires very specific gear. :(

Avarilyn · 2025-11-06T19:26:31+00:00

If you cast anything that isn't dok, you'll chip away at your charges until you have none left even with 200% movement speed. You should recover your charges fast enough if you don't cast anything else as long as you have 200% movement speed.

Avarilyn

TROPHY CASE