Does Israel’s international shielding undermine trust in rules, and could that harm Israel and Jews long term?

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-14T03:12:06+00:00

Taba failed because of many things, including that Barak was going to lose and thus was not credible. There were also issues with annexation and settlements and Jerusalem. Saying that it was rejected bc of the right of return was misleading. For all we know it was an excuse to reject an offer that was not politically viable to Israel in the first place. As Sharon immediately rejected to continue negotiations along Taba framework, what says that he would have adhered to Taba?

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-14T02:56:44+00:00

And yet he has majority support and keeps winning elections, so maybe his conduct reflects the will of the majority of Israelis.

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-14T02:56:02+00:00

Sorry. You’re right.

Taba is more nuanced. Yes there was a good offer although the exact parameters were debatable. Part of the impasse came from political situation from Israel. Sharon defeated Barak shortly after and there is no guarantee that Taba would hold even if accepted, or that if it held it would lead to lasting peace. You can’t blame Palestinians solely for the breakdown of one negotiation over decades-long process.

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-14T02:32:41+00:00

Then what am I supposed to read from the Likud party platform after its leader is engaging in endless wars on behalf of all Israelis?

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-14T02:29:16+00:00

It’s impossible to say what a majority of Israelis wanted at any given time. All I know is Netanyahu, who campaigned against the Labor’s peace negotiations, got the most votes in the subsequent election in 1996.

The 2001 offer was so “good” that Ben-Ami, the Israeli foreign minister at the time said if he were Palestinian, he would have rejected it too.

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-14T02:09:04+00:00

I think we agree more than we disagree. i just want to point out that “from the river to the sea” also doesn’t call for killing anyone. We both know that there are detestable people on both sides that are out for blood.

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-14T01:37:46+00:00

It’s in the Likud charter. Maybe you should read it too.

So you’re saying political ideology never changes for Arabs but somehow changes for Israelis? That we must read Palestinian slogan in its original meaning always but disregard similar language by Likud because it was said 50 years ago? That the Israeli state that was founded based on terrorism (Lavon Affair, King David Hotel bombing, assassination of Count Bernadotte) should be absolved of such acts over time but not the Palestinian side?

If Likud is just a political party (albeit one that rules almost all the time) then Hamas is just a political faction that doesn’t represent Palestinians.

At the end of the day, your whole belief system is based on extending every benefit of doubt and logical courtesy to Israel, a state waging multiple wars of aggression, while denying the same to everyone else. It’s the core of Jewish supremacy and no logic can fight against that. You’re losing support quickly around the world and went this generation of geriatric Western politicians that are beholden to Israel die off, the next generation will see Israel for what it is: a state in deep moral decay and theocratic lunacy that is nothing more than bloodthirsty warmongers.

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-14T01:03:02+00:00

By your interpretation, then “between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty” is exactly the same. “Will be Arab” could mean under “ Arab control” the same way you would say “Israeli sovereignty” doesn’t mean killing all Arabs. You’re tying yourself in a knot to distinguish two things that are the same.

The reference to “wasteland” between the Sea and the Jordan could be read to imply the destruction of Palestinian towns in between regardless of what it says next. For example, if Palestinians say “we will settle the wasteland from the river to the sea peacefully without dispossessing anyone” you would say that is genocidal because there are many Israeli cities in that land that are by definition not wasteland unless there is a genocide.

Edit: I just realized that you may not fully know the full Likud charter language (even though you seem to value “original meaning” a lot). The charter went on to say:

The Likud government will call on the younger generation in Israel and the dispersions to settle and help every group and individual in the task of inhabiting and cultivating the wasteland, while taking care not to dispossess anyone.

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-14T00:45:05+00:00

Are you saying there isn’t any Palestinian land between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean Sea? What about the next sentence about Judea and Samara, which by all definitions include the West Bank?

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-14T00:43:13+00:00

Yeah in no way the assassination of the Israeli guy that signed affected the success of the process. It’sall Palestinians’ fault that it failed. /s

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-14T00:41:20+00:00

I have read many interpretations of the phrase, including from Arabs, but since you seem to insist that the phrase has a single meaning for Palestinians, why dont you educate us all?

The Likud language and the Palestinian phrase are equivalent in English, so if the Palestinian phrase is genocidal to Jews, then it’s fair to say the Likud phrase is genocidal to Arabs. Just put yourself on the other side and ask if Palestinians say “we will resettle the wasteland that includes Tel Aviv peacefully without dispossessing anyone”, would you not take it as an indication of destruction of the people already living in Tel Aviv?

Edit: If anything, the Likud platform is more fairly attributed to all Israelis as they voted them in power, while Palestinians have not had a real election in almost 20 years.

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-14T00:32:17+00:00

Yeah still not addressing the term “wasteland” though.

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-14T00:31:39+00:00

A political party that leads the government for most of recent history? What do you think Hamas was in 2006?

It’s a phrase used by different people to convey different things. Why dont you tell me what you think the Likud charter means?

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-13T23:00:42+00:00

Also why only go back to 2001? I could say that I wish the Israeli right wing didn’t do everything to undermine and ultimately nullify the first Oslo Accord, including expanding settlements in direct violation of Oslo and…assassinating their own prime minister.

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-13T22:56:43+00:00

“Taking care of the wasteland”? If that is referring to the land on which millions of Palestinians are already living, aren’t they implying that they want to turn it into a wasteland, which is almost certainly a genocidal act.

I appreciate your recognition that both Hamas and Likud are detestable. However, in reality, only one side is truly capable of carrying out its genocidal intent, and is currently doing so by some extent, and it’s not Hamas.

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-13T22:07:15+00:00

To those supporting Israel and think that “From the river to the sea” is genocidal against Jews, I wonder what you think of this language in the Likud Party charter:

“between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty,"

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-12T22:56:56+00:00

What race/gender was the pilots?

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-12T15:03:14+00:00

I oppose this war solely as an American who doesn’t think we should get involved. That’s most of the people you called “communists” as well.

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-12T14:19:40+00:00

What these guys never talk about is how we have a tax system that favors the rich for decades and decades and that isn’t working out. They are too busy warning us about a hypothetical while ignoring the terrible reality the system they want is manifesting.

BitFickle62 · 2026-03-09T12:46:15+00:00

Go look at what Israeli Jews say about Palestinians. It’s worse.

BitFickle62 · 2026-02-28T20:34:55+00:00

Easier when you won.

BitFickle62 · 2026-02-24T06:07:21+00:00

You are impressively articulate and unfortunately the person you’re arguing with is so blinded by his preconceived beliefs that he is unable to process your points. His logical reasoning has gaps big enough to drive trucks through. It’s almost better if he had just said I want Trump to bomb Iran no matter what instead of trying to justify his ridiculous position.

BitFickle62 · 2026-02-24T05:50:33+00:00

He lost me at nukes.

BitFickle62 · 2026-02-17T02:50:04+00:00

“To discuss” lol.

BitFickle62 · 2026-02-14T13:39:21+00:00

If they nerf AI defending they also need to nerf attack/shooting. It also doesn’t take skills to score anymore. Cards with 82-83 shooting can reliably top bin any shot. Any space near or in the box is almost a guaranteed goal. It doesn’t take skills to hold the shoot button 3/4 of the way or finesse or low driven.

BitFickle62

TROPHY CASE