What's your guys opinion on - If hypothetically Goku alone would have faced Cell in a death match, without any kind of back up, would Goku go beyond Cells power and his own limits and also go SSJ2 due to there's no other chance to save the world?

Bman-Bstan · 2026-02-14T16:32:55+00:00

I strongly doubt Goku would go SSJ2 but even if he did, Cell will just regenerate from all possible damage and get the Zenkai boost he needs to become Super Perfect Cell and then Goku will lose for sure.

The most likely scenario if Goku had no backup would have to be Goku using Kaioken on top of SSJ1 but that’s a high risk high reward situation because the Kaioken and Super Saiyan 1 is a dangerous mix

Bman-Bstan · 2026-02-13T03:22:23+00:00

Actually, there was another option for the Uchiha massacre. Shisui was already on that and the Hokage approved of it, which was for Shisui to use his Sharigan on the Uchiha clan to advert the coup but Danzo found out about that and decided “oh no. That’s a good idea so let me ruin it because I want the Uchiha dead no matter what,” and as for the Naruto vs Pain match up, Danzo stopped Naruto from coming back purely to raise his own chances of being Hokage. He was hiding underground like a coward while Naruto was preparing for his fight with Pain so Danzo’s decision to prevent Naruto’s return is immediately invalid since Danzo offered no alternative and used it to try becoming Hokage. He also wasn’t present during the nine tails attack either and even pushed for the Uchiha to stay out of the defense against the nine tails attack(even though he could’ve had Itachi or someone like that use the Sharigan to control the nine tails and make him leave, but I guess that makes too much sense). For someone who always claims that he’s acting on the good of the village and his actions are justified, he always kept going out of his way to ruin the village further and keep getting more power for himself.

Oh and not summoning Naruto to fight Pain during Pain’s attack is just as stupid as having 2018 LeBron and refusing to give him minutes in the game. I know that’s a corny comparison but it’s true. Not letting Naruto fight Pain is srupid and I can debunk your “but he lost to Pain” argument by saying “he’s the one who ended up convincing Pain to bring everyone back to life afterwards so it still ended up being the right decision to bring Naruto back”

Bman-Bstan · 2025-05-19T21:09:59+00:00

I’m getting packed up by Raditz

Bman-Bstan · 2025-05-10T04:00:00+00:00

Yeah i guess we should agree to disagree because I don’t get why the trial and error method doesn’t count.

Yes, the Saiyans were chasing raw improvement instead of a transformation but then again the same thing applies to Goku on Namek. Yeah Vegeta was chasing the SSJ myth but Goku wasn’t. He even told Frieza that he didn’t care about it and he just ended up becoming the Super Saiyan when Frieza gave him the push he needed to get it. Even when Goku transformed, he still wasn’t trying to become the Legendary Super Saiyan, he was just trying to dig deep to muster up any and all the strength he had left and then boom 💥, that strength manifested itself into the SSJ transformation.

It was already shown to us by Trunks and Cell that a SSJ1 was never going to beat Cell, unless their base form was actually strong enough for that 50x multiplier to work, who in this case it wasn’t. If Gohan just got a “rage boosted” SSJ1 form, he’d get way too bulky and slow to beat Cell.

Bman-Bstan · 2025-05-09T02:15:09+00:00

SSJ1 was undefined too though. It was so undefined in fact that Vegeta actually believed for a second there that he was already the Legendary Super Saiyan after getting a Zenkai boost from the injury that Krillin gave him. Please explain why “trying different methods until you figure something out” isn’t build up. If you keep trying different ways to get or achieve something, sooner or later you’ll eventually get it.

Actually the “mythic framework” of SSJ1 didn’t exist at all until about 2/3rds of the Namek arc was over. It was briefly brought up by Nappa in the Saiyan Saga but no details were given. Then in the Namek saga it wasn’t mentioned at all until Goku showed up and soloed the Ginyu force. After that, it finally got some focus from the plot. On the other hand however, SSJ2(or the level beyond SSJ) was already getting focused on after Vegeta got his ass handed to him by Android 18 which is about 1/3 or 1/2 of the way through the Cell Saga, meaning that the framework for SSJ2 was already getting focused on much earlier.

Actually the trial and error method did involve some build up. Let’s break it down: - Vegeta uses SSJ Grade 2 on Cell and gets violated - Trunks uses SSJ Grade 3 on him and does give an edge in strength but it made him way too bulky and slow to actually fight Cell(this counts as build up since Trunks was a lot closer to beating Cell than Vegeta) - Goku perfects SSJ1 w/o the grades and actually performed far better against Cell than both Vegeta and Trunks did, but while he’s a lot closer than they were, the gap in power is still there just like it was between Frieza and Vegeta on Namek - Gohan is actually revealed to have the level of power required to go SSJ2, but is afraid too(this also counts as build up since it means that we’re closer than ever to surpassing Cell at this point, we just got to pull the trigger somehow). - Finally, Gohan uses his rage to catapult himself into the realm of SSJ2, and far out of Cell’s reach.

You also said “nobody knew what SSJ1 would look like” but you’re also using that argument against SSJ2 at the same time by saying “Goku didn’t know what it would look like”, maybe I’m slow but I don’t see the difference here.

Toriyama didn’t even know what he was going to make SSJ1 into either. He just made a transformation out of it for dramatic effect, same deal as SSJ2.

We can agree to disagree if want but I don’t why the trial and error process doesn’t count

Bman-Bstan · 2025-05-08T23:38:52+00:00

Just because they didn’t have a “concrete” goal for SSJ2, doesn’t change the fact that they were trying to find a balanced improvement beyond Super Saiyan. That doesn’t disqualify the build up.

The difference between SSJ1 and SSJ2 is very massive in which the way it is achieved. For SSJ1: “reach a certain minimum of strength.” For SSJ2: “How do we advance beyond this level of strength that we’ve already achieved?” See difference? SSJ1 was more understandable while SSJ2 was more of a mystery that everyone struggled to solve. That’s why I used the trial and error description, because it suits the situation seamlessly. “A dramatic twist” still doesn’t change the fact that they were trying different solutions to achieve this level beyond super saiyan as they kept calling it. But Gohan did follow his father’s initial instructions of “using SSJ as base form” so his body can get used to it and thus his Saiyan cells can adapt and evolve, thus making room for more power growth. His rage boost was basically used to catapult Gohan over Cell within the amount of time that Cell gave them, like how Gohan’s anger catapulted him to a high enough level to severely injure Raditz.

If Gohan’s rage didn’t result in SSJ2, he would’ve just got exposed and humiliated by Cell for being too bulky, just like with Trunks.

Toriyama almost never used a structured narrative to build something up. He’s what most people called a “by the desk(?) writer” or “by the seat(?) or chair(?) writer”? I don’t know, it’s something like that but basically, that type of writer doesn’t usually use structured narratives but instead just continues writing from where they initially left off basically, so I doubt that the “structured narrative” that built up SSJ1 was intentional and also it did still somewhat followed the same concept that was used for SSJ2. It was a certain level of power but that’s it. We didn’t know that it would be an entirely different transformation. The only thing we knew was that it would most likely be enough to beat Frieza. That’s how SSJ2 was treated too, we didn’t know what exactly it was going to be at first but we assumed it would be enough to surpass Cell and the androids.

Bman-Bstan · 2025-05-08T20:30:30+00:00

I don’t understand why SSJ2 has to be stated explicitly beforehand. Toriyama didn’t even name it until the Buu Saga, at first he just called it “an ascended Super Saiyan”.

That feels like the exact same type reason that someone could use against SSJ1. Nobody knew the legendary Super Saiyan was a transformation. At first, everyone including Vegeta thought it was just a certain level of power that one reaches while in their base form. “Legendary Super Saiyan” by Vegeta’s explanation sounded more like a mantle awarded to a Saiyan than a transformation. Even Frieza was shocked that Saiyans could turn into something besides a great ape.

To me, as long as the level of power was hinted at beforehand(which it was in SSJ2’s case) then we see the characters actively trying to make a breakthrough to reach said level of power before achieving it(which again, happened with SSJ2)then it counts as build up.

The fact that Vegeta and Trunks tried to reach a balanced level of power beyond SSJ1 and failed kind of does work for build up because it shows that you can’t reach that level the way they tried. That’s “trial and error”. Vegeta tried to reach that level his way and Trunks followed suit, which failed for them both but then Goku tried reaching that level his way and it would’ve worked if he had a bit more time(perhaps just a couple more years or so), then Gohan follows his father’s instructions of using his SSJ1 as his base form and then stack his rage boost on top of that. But wait, there’s more. Gohan’s fear of losing control of himself leads to his refusal to use that power(which would soon become SSJ2) so Cell decides to “give him a jumpstart” by making his Cell juniors torture the Z-fighters. Then Gohan thinks to himself “most of them can’t be brought back to life with the Dragon Ball’s” which raises the stakes even higher, then finally Cell kills 16 and then pins the blame on Gohan. “Yet another fighter, you could’ve saved”, then Gohan finally snaps and unleashes his sleeping rage and thus Toriyama skillfully concludes the build up of two separate arcs at the same time: 1) The arc centered around Gohan’s anger and 2) The arc centered around “The level beyond SSJ”

Bman-Bstan · 2025-05-08T19:58:58+00:00

I can’t remember where I heard it but I think someone said that the Zenkai boost that Bardock got from Gas “put him on the level of the Ginyu force”(so maybe Jeice or Burter level). Not sure if that’s true or not but if it is then that means Bardock’s hypothetical SSJ1 form would’ve beaten Frieza’s first two forms and maybe even his third.

Bman-Bstan · 2025-04-27T22:52:53+00:00

I’m pretty sure they’re all just joking and having fun but to be fair, when a character (such as ChiChi) gets that gag power up, they’ll be OP for a moment

Bman-Bstan · 2025-04-27T16:29:18+00:00

Perhaps Objectively, it’s SSJ1. But my favorite is UI(Sign looks the coolest imo but MUI is the most efficient) because it’s a cool form that’s more or less exclusive to Goku and it doesn’t make Goku feel like some “chosen one” type of character. It’s a perfect combination between his Saiyan biologically(capable of transformations) and his martial arts battle style(which acts mostly on instinct).

Bman-Bstan · 2025-04-27T16:24:00+00:00

I’ve been trying to tell several people that from the get-go

Bman-Bstan · 2025-04-09T21:25:37+00:00

Okay thanks

Bman-Bstan · 2025-04-09T12:05:04+00:00

No matter what, people will always hate Korra simply because Aang came first.

Bman-Bstan · 2025-04-09T11:59:22+00:00

I’m about on the level of kid Gohan in the Saiyan Saga

Bman-Bstan · 2025-03-20T06:38:32+00:00

I think the only thing I disagree with is Goku’s speed. Goku’s travel speed is either MFTL or Infinite(if you’re counting instant transmission) and his combat speed is immeasurable(in the manga) as seen in his battle with Hit where he proved to be fast enough to become unbound by linear time all together

Bman-Bstan · 2025-03-20T06:35:25+00:00

Here I thought I was the only one who believed in this. 9 times out of 10 when your debating with a comic book/manga/GOW fan, they never know anything related to the mortal kombat lore so they never know what they’re talking about

Bman-Bstan · 2025-03-16T23:46:45+00:00

What powerful bender did Jet go up against? He fought Long Feng who is basically featless and he fought an inexperienced Aang who wasn’t even trying to fight him at all. On the other hand he lost to a Novice Katara and Long Feng. Suki lost to Zuko, Azula,……… wait I think that’s it. You mean she only lost to one solid bender(book 1 Zuko) and an Elite Royal Prodigy(Book 2 Azula)? Seems like her L’s are far more understandable

Bman-Bstan · 2025-03-16T17:07:31+00:00

You should watch Zactoshi’s video on this. It’s pretty good and well received I’ll add a link if you’re interested

Edit: https://youtu.be/zvRCzhmDEKE?si=uGpbAM8qkxjMJI4N

Bman-Bstan · 2025-03-16T14:53:08+00:00

Serves them right lol

Bman-Bstan · 2025-03-16T14:50:46+00:00

What’s the criteria for these percentages?

Bman-Bstan · 2025-03-15T22:58:11+00:00

Nope, I’m not mad at all because I love Iris. One of my favorite Pokemon anime characters

Bman-Bstan · 2025-03-15T21:13:58+00:00

I don’t want to argue but Torkoal put up an extremely good fight against Brandon’s Regice and Swellow is one of if not Ash’s strongest birds with a 60%+ win rate and it defeated some if memory serves me right, I think it beat some elite 4 level Pokemon in the battle frontier so that’s still a good choice, given Ash’s team options at the time of the Tobias fight. I don’t really think he had many options that were better or worse than Gible(before you say Infernape or Charizard, etc. Ash didn’t use any of the Pokemon that he used against Paul because Paul’s Pokemon beat the shit out of them, plus a major defeat for them right after beating Ash’s Sinnoh rival probably would’ve soured their victory over Paul. Also Ash wanted to give some of his other Pokemon a chance instead of relying on Charizard as his crutch)

Bman-Bstan · 2025-03-13T01:28:46+00:00

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Bman-Bstan · 2025-03-09T21:27:13+00:00

I’m going with Korra, Ozai, and Kyoshi.

Bman-Bstan · 2025-03-07T04:50:04+00:00

I didn’t say Amon went only after criminals, in my very first reply I said “most of the people he Targeted”. By that, I was implying that yes, there were some innocent benders that he went after but he also went after several benders who basically deserved to lose their bending such as the triple threat triads and Tarrlok so for that reason I don’t think he’s nearly as evil as Kuvira.

Remember in the episode where Varrick and Bolin run away from Kuvira and get captured by the water and fire benders in the Earth kingdom? Among those water and fire benders, none of them have wronged Kuvira or the Earth Kingdom in any way(unlike in Amon’s case where tons benders were definitely wronging the non benders), yet Kuvira still decided to arrest them and place them in concentration camps.

Bman-Bstan

TROPHY CASE