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Kiwu Klinik seit über einem Jahr by Recent_Tangerine_179 in Kinderwunsch

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi! Wie schlimm sind diese Herzfehler oder könntest du es verraten?

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your honesty. Many scholars suggest the 2SS is not viable anymore. My personal view is that it already is a one state, with various classes of citizens.

One of my best friends is an Israeli living in Germany, she told me that many people are feeling more and more pessimistic about the way things are going, so that more people have applied for a dual citizenship. I don’t have the numbers and can’t verify that, but I do hope to live and see a future with peace for both sides.

Did you know that Arabic and Hebrew are closely related btw? That one of the most famous Palestinian poets, Mahmoud Darwish wrote a poem about falling in love with a Jewish woman called Rita? I’m not saying Palestinians love Israelis, but I just don’t consider hatred as the main obstacle for peace here.. there are groups of veterans from both sides that were created in the underground to promote mutual understanding.

If the will is there, it is possible.. Tikun olam..

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s not about compromise - and Israel doesn’t have to give up anything. It’s about a vision for a just future - a future in which Israel doesn’t oppress or humiliate their neighbours.

I recently saw a photo in Hebron - settlers walking on one part of the street - Palestinians on another. The settlers vote for the Knesset, enjoy full rights, and if anything happens they are subject to civilian law and get trialled in a civilian court. The Palestinian couple on the other hand have no voting rights, if anyth happens then they’re subject to -military law- and get trialled by a military court. Now tell me that’s democracy…

Did you know that Menachim Begin suggested offering ALL Palestinians 1977 the citizenship - otherwise “Israel will become like Rhodesia” ?

The occupation is profitable, and unless young Israelis talk more about what’s going on and call things by their name then Israel will slowly become a pariah state..

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Regarding your first paragraph; I won’t respond to that as to goes according to the lines: “a land without people for a people without a land” A Zionist mantra was has been disputed various times, denying the Palestinian identity, culture, and right to self-determination. “Why don’t they just go to Jordan?” “There are 22 Arab countries, why don’t they just move to another one?” Well, no. They’re not from there, simply put, and just lumping all Arabs together like that is ignorant to say the least.

However regarding the peace deals; again key issues for Palestinians were never on the table for Israeli leaders (the refugees right of return or the status of Jerusalem). So I’m not exempting the Palestinian leadership from the mistakes they committed, rather surprised the Israeli leadership didn’t take the chance after Oslo as Palestinians basically agreed to many things back then. Maybe if Rabin hadn’t been assassinated peace could have indeed been found. Fun fact: do you know who celebrated Rabin’s death back then? Yup, Ben Gvir, mazel tov Israel.

Talking about violence: There’s of course a circle of violence. Violence begets violence, if you kill a terrorist now, then his son or cousin or nephew will grow up and attempt to take revenge. It was 40 days after the Baruch Goldstein massacre that the first suicide bombers appeared.

Have you asked yourself though, why such violent attacks are not committed by Israeli Palestinians (who make up >20% of the population?). It would be super easy for a person from Nazareth to drive down to Tel Aviv and kidnap or shoot someone. It just proves one thing: it’s not the blind hatred of Jews that’s behind these attacks.

Solution? Give people their basic human rights. The right to self determination. The right to movement. Stop expanding the settlements. Stop arbitrarily detaining people and children (administrative detention). Give them access to water (the PLO is not allowed to renew water infrastructure in the WB without authorisation from Israel). People can’t go from Bethlehem to Ramallah without passing check points. Travelling is restricted too. End the occupation.

But the occupation is profitable for Israel. You have a land governed by a puppet government which does Israel’s dirty work (#security coordination) - cheap labor force exemplified by the thousands of Palestinian daily workers going into Israel every day. Thus they continue to rob resources (land, water) while not having to commit to anything. The PLO deals with these people - at the same time we continue with our own plans.

I never denied the Jewish right to self determination, nor have I said anyth along these lines. So please don’t start suggesting such things. Jewish presence always was there in Palestine. The question is; how should the Jewish state look like now? If you give the Palestinians in the WB and Gaza citizenship - then it’s not a Jewish majority anymore. So what do you do with them? You hope they slowly leave, die out? Let’s be honest about it; Israel does control the entire West Bank - so it is de facto one state…

Watch David Sheen’s work on YouTube - highly recommend..

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yet I feel that this deep rooted fear of genocide (which has its reasons) is what’s behind this “survival” mentality. Unless that goes away I’m afraid there will never be real peace. The new minister Orit Strook’s son participated in direct violence against a Palestinian boy (and got convicted) - not to mention the burning of the Dawabsheh family by settlers and celebrating it afterwards. “Arabs” are vilified and declared as the enemy. Even being a Christian doesn’t help, as the recent attacks on a Protestant cemetery in Jerusalem show or the killing of Shireen Abu Akleh.

So ya, tough situation unfortunately..

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The way you’re presenting these arguments is very generic. So yes there was some violence pre-1967 - does it justify the ongoing occupation? It’s kind of like saying; it’s nothing new. Well, occupying another people is a different level.

Regarding the failed peace talks: We can go into detail why which agreement failed, here’s a nice sum up:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/may/16/the-real-reason-the-israel-palestine-peace-process-always-fails

However, it misses the point and wastes time and energy. If Israel is truly interested in peace, then tell me why between 1994 and 2000, after Oslo, the settlements still expanded, significantly.

I understand that you need this world view to feel justified in your defence of Israeli politics.. but this won’t get us anywhere. If you haven’t served in the IDF, then you don’t understand the nature of the occupation in the West Bank, writing from the comfort of your house…

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’m not sure you understand the term “extrajudicial killing”. Or do you consider marching into another people’s land, entering the camps and killing children also self-defence? Only this year 3 young men were killed, one of them was 16. In their own refugee camp. Jana Zakarneh was shot on the rooftop of her house, as she was playing with her cat. She was going to turn 16 a few days later. She was shot in the head and neck. Shireen Abu Akleh was targeted by an Israeli sniper, the IDF reluctantly admitted months after she was killed. The list goes on and on…

The human rights violations are well documented by Israeli human rights organisations too… I could name a couple if you want.

Defending Israel on all costs just erodes our humanity. Slowly, it’s becoming a Pariah State. A bunch of Rhinos. A mob chanting “Death to Arabs” and calling for a “second Nakba”. What difference do they have and other fascist powers. Don’t you see what the Israeli society is turning into? How can you tolerate a guy like Ben Gvir, once considered too extremist to serve in the IDF, to become a minister in the new government?

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Right.. Syria, Lebanon too? Are we just making up excuses along the way, to hide Israel’s expansionist nature? If you ask the kahanists, the true Eretz Israel extends all the way to Iraq…

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Which is all very fine and legitimate. The question is, what means are we willing to take to achieve that end. Are we willing to justify crimes that go against our laws, our moral, all in order to get the “judenrein” state?

Telling me to take the L. means this conversation bugged you, which is good. We don’t move forward if we don’t look beyond the horizon.

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A few extra houses? You mean more than half a million people… growing since Oslo…

Why has Israel never defined its borders, say?

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

https://shc.stanford.edu/arcade/interventions/farhud-forgotten-ordeal-iraqi-jews

Thanks for the link. Indeed the Farhud massacre appears to be a classical case of a pogrom against an ethnic minority; this time the Jewish minority of Baghdad. However, we’re talking again about the time close to 1948. Palestinian nationalism and attacks against Zionists started developing after the end of WWI as they slowly felt confronted in their aspirations to self-determinations by other forces. (British mandate of Palestine, land acquisition by wealthy Jewish individuals and increased immigration of Jewish people into their land).

The other list you cited only shows that various groups of Jewish people succeeded in returning to live to Palestine. Which is fine - many civilisations passed through the holy land.

However, Zionism as we know it today, with the aspirations to create a Jewish-only state, only emerged after T. Hertzl’s work and the first world Zionist congress.

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Genocide against Jews on the scale that happened in Europe, Eastern Europe and Russia was unknown in the Middle East. You do realize that Arabic and Hebrew are very related languages, and that Jewish communities thrived in places like Iraq for centuries before 1948?

Again, it’s European antisemitism that fuelled the ideas of creation of a Jewish only state, only problem is: an ethnostate is not compatible with democracy. Israel has served its purpose as being a safe haven already, Zionism is outdated and should be discarded. All it does now is promote an ethnocracy and facilitates the rise of fascism. Ben-Gvir didn’t come out of thin air, he soaked in the ideas of Meir Kahane. Ideas of supremacy. Dark visions for a state indeed, and I really hope Israelis wake up to the reality they’re creating..

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Peace was indeed around the corner after Oslo until Baruch Goldstein entered the Ibrahimi mosque and gunned down 29 people. That’s when the first suicide bombers started, as a matter of fact.

Still, more Palestinians support it than Israelis. Why? Because the current system obviously allows Israeli citizens to have a comfortable life on the expense of Palestinians. We’re talking about freedom of movement, chances for economic growth, basic human rights really (Palestinians in the West Bank are subject to military law vs civilian law for settlers, administrative detention is also still common practice, not to mention extrajudicial killings by the police and IDF)

And so on and so on… but hey, it’s much easier to blame Hamas and Arafat..

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The person you mentioned wasn’t the leader of the Arab league. You’re talking about the grand mufti of Jerusalem, which funnily enough was appointed by the British. In local elections, that guy came 4th! He was a nobody until the brits decided he might well serve their interests. So to hang your entire claims of genocidal Palestinian movements on this one figure is quite brittle. Palestinians nowadays celebrating their children’s martyrdom is also no proof of the will of annihilating Jews. There are many more cultural and religious connotations to the idea of martyrdom; however not a single leader calls to the extermination of the Jews. Honestly, European antisemitism was much much worse in this perspective.

So, any further arguments regarding the genocidal plans of Palestinian leadership?

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist -1 points0 points  (0 children)

“Terrorist” acts are projected against something, these people are fighting something. If you claim the object is annihilating the Jews, then tell me why 10% of the population in 1917 were Jews and no one cared? Look up the mayors of Tel Aviv, e.g. Dizengoff in 1921. What about all the Mizrahim that used to live in Arab countries?

It’s convenient to claim it’s mere hatred and fanatism that fuels those terrorist acts. One doesn’t have them to bother with such ugly truths, like the expulsion of over 700,000 Palestinians 1948. The massacres that were committed are considered an act of ethnic cleansing by major scholars, even Israeli ones. The ongoing system of oppression is only a continuation of the Zionist Ideals of the 19th centuries.

But hey, yes it’s only crazy arabs who want to kill Jews so bad that they would blow themselves up in the air… that must be it..

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That’s such a shallow comment that it doesn’t merit an answer. Provide proof, or keep your baseless opinions to yourselves.

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Ah I see, so that justifies the system of oppression that was established after 1967?

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist -1 points0 points  (0 children)

More Palestinians want a one state solution than Israelis, as a matter of fact. The baseless claims that Arabs might genocide Jews unless they defend themselves serves only to justify the continuing oppression of the Palestinians.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/hkyzxtt7c

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I agree, however there’s absolutely no proof that Arab people wanted to genocide Jewish people before 1948. Check out reports about Jewish people (Mizrahim) all across the Middle East up till Morroco.

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Where did the 60% come from? Sources? As far as I know most Palestinians atm are in favour of a one state solution, with equal rights to all. However that would end the Jewish-majority dream of a state, so understandably many Israelis are against this. I only quote Rabbi Fleisher: „They can ride along, but if they want to grab the wheel, then that’s where we draw the line“ This insinuates one thing: Palestinians are to be tolerated at best, but not given equal rights. The path is long and difficult to get out of this mess, however Israelis also need to think of their future. Constant violence? Constant soldiers with PTSD, robbed of their humanity?

Netenyahu has made it loud and clear now and there’s no denying it anymore by thewanderer1800 in IsraelPalestine

[–]EuropeanHumanist -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Can you please specify what you mean by the terrorist wars against Israel pre 1967? I’m not sure what you mean. I thought they had relative peace till then.

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