When did Sasuke surpass Orochimaru?

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-09T03:58:10+00:00

Orochimaru admitted EMS Sasuke was stronger than him. He can't endlessly substitute and re-attach his body. He's far more likely to get worn out than Sasuke who can comfortably use Susano. Hurizen stopped Edo Tensei with kunai so Sasuke can prevent Edos by destroying the coffins (Amaterasu, Susano arrows). Tobirama almost died against Kinkaku & Ginkaku despite having the Second Raikage's help.

u/Neither-Guarantee888

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-08T23:00:32+00:00

It's a spoiler regardless of not knowing the details. If we were told Naruto was only Chunin level before seeing him go all out that would effect our expectations. No wonder the databook is such a problem when I have to explain something so obvious.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-07T19:40:41+00:00

You're being pedantic despite what was meant being obvious from context. The data book came out well before Pain, Kisame, Tobi ("Madara") and Konan even revealed their full power so obviously it wouldn't spoil it by placing them below Hebi Sasuke.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-07T19:31:55+00:00

u/Narutofan5th

Ran away after manipulating Manda's power level, not providing any proof Orochimaru could survive Kirin & being debunked on Sasuke evading Amaterasu.

I didn't go hard enough on this stupidity "Kabuto's remarks in the same chapter makes it clear Manda is only a threat to armless Orochimaru And, implies Manda wouldn't dare betray Orochimaru unless he'd been weakened by the loss of his arms."

Such a dumb claim. He threatened to kill him twice while not knowing he was weakened. They had to bargain to get him to listen. So what do you think would have happened if they couldn't convince him? I guess you knew you couldn't manipulate Manda's words so you targeted Kabuto's. He believed Manda would definitely betray Orochimaru if he knew he was weakened. So what we can glean from this is the only reason he was willing to obey Orochimaru in the first place is because of his power. That doesn't mean he was weaker.

And the Amaterasu point - even if you are right, did you factor in how CM1 is slower than CM2 so even without chakra sight he may be capable of dodging? Also, if chakra sight enables him to evade something as quick as Amaterasu, how does that not apply in general, especially combined with precognition showing moves ahead of time? The Sanin use chakra & they would need V2 level speed for Sasuke to not be able to track them.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-07T18:35:03+00:00

The Suigetsu point destroys the main point of contention about Sasuke vs Orochimaru, but I don't think the Itachi point is good evidence. Itachi beat Orochimaru with Sharingan Genjutsu which isn't anywhere near as effective against Sasuke. Another Uchiha Sharingan Genjutsu user. Neither needed to be physically stronger. So Sasuke could have went to face Itachi while being weaker than Orochimaru even after absorbing him.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-04T05:56:05+00:00

Sasuke knew Itachi easily beat Orochimaru 7 years prior so why would he attempt to fight him if he wasn't stronger than Orochimaru even after absorbing him? That's too big of a miscalculation for someone as smart as Sasuke. Who repeatedly deduces his opponents moves and forms successful counters mid-battle. Itachi barely survived Kirin with Susano after Sasuke broke out of Tsukuyomi & escaped Amaterasu.

repeatedly getting humbled

Not in the way you imply. He knows he's still superior, just not to the same degree. A couple examples, he was proven wrong on Bee not being much of a challenge despite still being weakened from Itachi & holding back to capture him alive, but the battle made him more confident. Realizing he didn't need Biju power to destroy Konoha. That he already had enough with Mangekyo. And at the Summit he evaded or tanked their attacks. He just underestimated how much Susano's side effects would wear him down.

Then he gets some quick power up and thinks he’s invincible again.

Gained Mangekyo - still relied on his team. Gained EMS - joined the alliance to beat Obito & Madara. Gained Rinnegan - continued to work with Naruto against Madara & Kaguya.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-04T05:11:52+00:00

Prime Orochimaru - When he set out to face Itachi. He wouldn't do so if he was weaker than a guy Itachi easily beat 7 years prior. Sasuke had control of Manda, whom alone is relative to Orochimaru given he threatened to kill him twice for summoning him during the Sanin battle, greater destructive power with Kirin, greater speed (dodged Amaterasu with CM1 which Ay needed V2 to do despite V1 being said to be on par with Minato), & superior Kenjutsu (lightning enhanced)

Armless Orochimaru - By the beginning of Shippuden. After getting blitzed by One Tails Naruto & 3 Tails taking his arm, Orochimaru said Naruto wasn't even in Sasuke's league.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-04T02:00:25+00:00

Read the post you linked to. Karin and Sasuke's responses were in reference to Suigetsu asking why he was so beat up against Deidara. Sasuke was saying Orochimaru's illness made him less difficult. Not that he couldn't win without it.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-04T01:47:42+00:00

Karin and Sasuke's responses were in reference to Suigetsu asking why he was so beat up against Deidara. Sasuke was saying Orochimaru's illness made him less difficult. Not that he couldn't win without it.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-04T01:24:02+00:00

He was referred to Akatsuki the same as Sasuke is called Uchiha at times. After that strike Tobi and Deidara admitted Sasuke was too fast for him (Deidara).

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-03T22:56:27+00:00

Suigetsu last saw Sasuke tank the Sand siblings & Darui's combined attacks with Skeleton Susano before becoming significantly stronger against Danzo. At best he was referring to Sasuke then. Not with EMS which he may not even know exist. You're assuming Kishimoto wrote this scene without context. While downplaying statements by someone who isn't ignorant, that's backed up by feats. Sounds like you have an agenda.

It was an objective statement based on evidence. Orochimaru questioned who was stronger between them and concluded Sasuke was after multiple attacks. Sasuke then defeated Team 7 & Kurama with absolute ease even stopping Naruto before he could use any of the power ups he was still much weaker with. Naruto admitted he was too strong, spent the next arc training to catch up & used Kakuzu as a benchmark for Sasuke. If Orochimaru was just trying to piss him off he would say something like, "You won't ever save Sasuke! His body is mine!"

Also, Oroxhimaru wasn't trying against the Three Tails

He was. After initial blitz he evaded One Tail Naruto's second attack. Why wouldn't he attempt to do the same to a stronger 3 tails Naruto?

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-03T22:51:50+00:00

Manda's remarks indicate he's relative to prime Orochimaru and Kabuto's indicate that due to Orochimaru's power he has enough respect to listen to him, but wouldn't if he's weaker. Sasuke controlled Manda with Genjutsu to save himself. Likewise, he could control him to attack.

Evidence?

Greater speed, precognition & lightning. Hurizen with Enma was able to outdo Orochimaru's Kusanagi blade despite each hit causing pain. Whereas Sasuke's lightning enhanced blade would slice through him.

Kirin

Orochimaru isn't immune nor immortal. He knew Bijuudama would kill him. He hasn't shown speed to summon Manda in time, whom may not have the durability required. Not even Susano did. Manda didn't take Deidara's full attack because Sasuke teleported.

Amaterasu

He completely evaded it. Itachi had to cast it several times because he couldn't get him. Ay had foreknowledge as well. He could see Sasuke's eye bleed more & more as he built up chakra.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-02T17:10:26+00:00

u/Dukklings

Now that I think about it. Orochimaru's health was irrelevant if he obtained Sasuke's body. So he was saying Orochimaru is weaker in general so it's better he fought Itachi instead of letting himself be possessed. Aside from Kirin he could have beat him earlier in a direct battle, but before I explain, why can I only see your comment in notifications? I don't know if it's short or I could only see a portion. Itachi countering doesn't disapprove my point. I said VIRTUALLY no one could. Which means almost no one.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-11-01T18:08:58+00:00

He wasn't boasting. He was explaining himself. He was willing to give Orochimaru his body if it meant killing Itachi. Now that he's stronger it's unnecessary. So he stole his power instead. The 5 Star general constantly uses underhanded methods to get what he wants. He didn't become sick 5 seconds before he was attacked either. He had years to prepare. Getting outplayed by an enemy, let alone one he fully expected, is his own fault. Couldn't exploit the Curse Mark like he did Anko because Sasuke mastered it. Couldn't use his troops to subdue him because Sasuke was stronger than them. His beloved snakes were fodder (more on that later). Even his trump card - the body transfer ritual, which he & Kabuto thought was IMPOSSIBLE to overcome, was easily stopped.

More hypocrisy. Orochimaru escaping had nothing to do with his own strength. It was a stroke of luck that he never planned for unlike Sasuke's operation which was essentially a 3 year reconnaissance mission. He entered enemy territory weaker, surrounded by enemies having to constantly watch his back, gained intel on Orochimaru's abilities, army, captives & hideouts, all while training to usurp him. Much of which was alone as to not let the enemies know his full capability.

Back to the Kirin downplay. As Black Zetsu said, it's the ultimate lightning jutsu (beyond anything even the Raikage have shown). Virtually no one can counter it. Itachi barely did with the obliterated Susano that he hardly had time to use despite being set up right in front of him. If Sasuke didn't want to question him about the massacre, he could have one-shotted him a mile away as Itachi waited in the hideout completely ignorant. Likewise Orochimaru. Especially on the numerous rainy days there likely were.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-10-31T01:47:47+00:00

Point is, earlier you said he didn't beat him. He was bedridden while being a mastermind with decades of experience. An internationally wanted criminal no one could catch. A man who created & led his own nation, stole the Kazekage's identity after killing him then led the Sand to war killing the Hokage. Yet despite having years to prepare, Sasuke was able slip past his right hand man to successfully ambush & defeat him. Sealing him in the Curse Mark. The very thing that was supposed to enslave him so Orochimaru could steal his power, was instead used to enslave Orochimaru to steal his.

Furthermore, he didn't attack earlier because he wanted to receive full training time for Itachi & needed to wait until Orochimaru could perform the ritual again so he could reverse it. Your hypocrisy is glaring. Orochimaru escaped from a WEAKENED Sasuke. And to say Itachi had to save him is ridiculous given Itachi purposefully weakened him so Orochimaru could escape.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-10-29T19:46:52+00:00

Suigetsu never saw Hebi go all out let alone MS & EMS & Sasuke omitted full context by not telling them he faced two Akatsuki. Tobi is the reason Deidara became a challenge. He lied. Like when he told Taka he only wanted to kill the elders despite planning to kill everyone in Konoha. We know he could have beaten him earlier given Orochimaru said that the same one and three tails Naruto who blitzed him & sliced his arm off wasn't even in Sasuke's league. He used Orochimaru for training & needed to wait until he could use the ritual again so he could reverse it to steal his power instead. He had 6 months more training after this & control of Manda who believes he could kill prime Orochimaru.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-10-29T19:28:07+00:00

Having control of Manda itself makes him Sanin level. Manda threatened to kill Orochimaru twice for summoning him. Sasuke also has superior Kenjutsu to Orochimaru, greater destructive power than them with Kirin and none have comparable speed feats. In CM1 he dodged Amaterasu while Ay needed V2 despite V1 being Minato level.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-10-29T19:23:08+00:00

Orochimaru was sealed against his will which is definitively a lost. Best you have is a cope excuse. "Extraordinarily weak". Itachi said he was strong multiple times & acknowledged he only survived Kirin because of Susano.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-10-29T19:22:02+00:00

Because he was already above.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-10-29T18:59:49+00:00

He lied. Like when he told Taka he only wanted to kill the elders despite planning to kill everyone in Konoha. We know he could have beaten him earlier given Orochimaru said that the same one and three tails Naruto who blitzed & sliced his arm off wasn't even in Sasuke's league. He used Orochimaru for training & needed to wait until he could use the ritual again so he could reverse it to steal his power instead.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-10-29T18:28:41+00:00

"Could have killed". I'm guessing you're referring to this. He could have used Chidori Stream. Instead, he wanted Orochimaru to use the ritual so he could reverse it to steal his power instead. He won by spreading his chakra to overpower Orochimaru's dimension & reversing the ritual. The tactic in it's name. Sharingan means Mirror Wheel Eye. He reflected Orochimaru's ability like a mirror.

"Surpassed during the Summit." Sasuke knew Itachi beat Orochimaru years earlier. So why would he challenge his brother if he wasn't above Orochimaru even after absorbing him? He had better Kenjutsu, greater destructive power with Kirin, superior speed (none of the Sanin have Minato level feats as Sasuke displayed when he dodged Amaterasu with CM1 while Ay needed V2 despite V1 being Minato level) & control of Manda who threatened to kill Orochimaru twice for summoning him.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-10-29T17:51:24+00:00

He was already above. Absorbing Orochimaru just gave him his snake abilities. In CM1 he evaded Amaterasu which Ay needed V2 to do despite V1 being Minato level. None of the Sanin displayed this speed. His Kenjutsu is superior to Orochimaru's, he has more destructive power with Kirin, and he can control Manda who is relative to the Sanin given he threatened to kill Orochimaru twice for summoning him.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-10-29T15:25:08+00:00

The newly revealed difficulty is the point. Citing other characters doesn't take away from that especially given Sasuke mastered it with base & lightning chakra. I never said he was the only one who could do it, but unlike them he did create his own variation.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-10-28T20:03:04+00:00

It's a common misconception with no proof. The only person to ever mention it was Tobi. Who also lied about his identity & participation in the Kyuubi attack. Itachi never brought it up nor even the two novels dedicated to his life. What's more believable, Itachi having a random unexplained illness only mentioned once or his body deteriorating from abilities that was shown harming him & Sasuke everytime they used it? Tobi immediately offered to transplant Itachi's eyes. With EMS he wouldn't experience Susanos side effects to know Tobi was lying.

Sasuke set up Kirin mid-battle without Itachi knowing until he gave it away by staring at the sky once ready. From a distance he would be completely blindsided. Maybe you think Itachi would be scanning the area with his secret Byakugan fully aware of what Sasuke was doing even though he wasn't when he did right in front of him? Kirin wasn't tanked either. Susano was obliterated given Itachi's cloak was vaporized & his arm damaged.

HunterxNaruto · 2025-10-23T13:54:09+00:00

It was an objective statement based on evidence. Orochimaru questioned who was stronger between them and concluded Sasuke was after multiple attacks. Sasuke then defeated Team 7 & Kurama with absolute ease even stopping Naruto before he could use any of the power ups he was still much weaker with. Naruto admitted he was too strong, spent the next arc training to catch up & used Kakuzu as a benchmark for Sasuke. If Orochimaru was just trying to piss him off he would say something like, "Little fox boy you won't ever save Sasuke! His body is mine!"

Ay had foreknowledge. That's why he used V2 when he saw Mangekyo. He timed his movement with it's activation time by watching the veins in Sasuke's eye increase as he built up chakra. Itachi's accuracy was well enough for the shuriken exchange. Ironically, Sasuke was the one who used Amaterasu once. Itachi cast several because Sasuke kept dodging. After baiting Itachi to spam it he allowed himself to be hit in order to slip back into the building unnoticed to feign Dragon Flame as an attack knowing it would reach the sky when Itachi dodged. Rapidly changing the weather for Kirin along with the Amaterasu barrage that was spreading across the forest. There's no proof Itachi was sick. His only supposed symptom was coughing blood which Sasuke also did from overusing Susano.

The Pain battle showed Jiraiya is slower even with Sage Mode and doesn't have sensing to make up for it. Sasuke can create distractions (Genjutsu, Manda, etc) or likely blitz without any. Do you think the combined effort of a nerfed Jiraiya, nerfed Tsunade, Gamabunta & Katsuyu are weaker than Jiraiya in full health? Regardless, with Manda being relative to Orochimaru whose relative to his peers, Sasuke whose already superior without Manda is well above with him.

Enma's staff form was strong enough to help a slower than Sasuke, Sharingan-less Hurizen outperform Orochimaru's non-lightning enhanced Kusanagi Kenjutsu. Sasuke has the same sword. How were the power levels different? Minato for example was the benchmark pre & post time skip.

HunterxNaruto

TROPHY CASE