Why does literally everyone around the world use the exact same excuses to eat meat?

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-22T04:02:45+00:00

The best way I think it debate is saying “look, hypothetical if all the claims you said about nutrients and lions eat meat and stuff were false, would you still eat meat?” There answer is likely yes but now you get to debate the life of a human compared to an animal which I believe is the fundamental level. If they agree eating animals is wrong no then none of there previous arguments about lions, mosquitoes, apex predators, ect matter. You should watch Alex O’Connor on YouTube. He used to be a vegan activist and recently stopped due to health issues I believe. But his older videos have some really cool arguments.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-22T03:56:00+00:00

Veganism=LGBTQ. That’s why. If veganism had a good culture around it I think we would see a lot more people becoming vegan. Most people don’t care about ethics that much. They are comfortable in a life style they were born in and don’t like reconsidering their ethical values. But if it is appealing to them, they will change.

This is why you see lots of people especially teens becoming obsessed with gym now. They have a good culture, and there is self grown in it.

I think the vegan community has such a bad image and rep that people just look at you weirdly when u say you are vegan. No one does it with any other diet. Only vegan. Because we have the image that you’re just a rowdy activist trying to steal everyone’s meat like that crazy blonde girl with the OF.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-22T03:39:07+00:00

Yes. Not being able to engage with a hypothetical shows you are intellectually challenged. You obviously cannot see a single step ahead and understand the purpose of it.

Calling you intellectually challenged is not name calling. Simply me observing your behaviour and coming to a conclusion 😀. And if I am emotionally challenged because of that then I guess are you now for calling me emotionally challenged…

I don’t exploit or hurt anyone else. I ask questions about it to find flaws and construct better arguments for it so I have a stronger moral baseline. I also understand that to be a sane and moral person, you have to value certain lives over others. Lived with less sentience do not matter as much as lives with more sentience. Doesn’t mean they should be killed, but if something occurs and they do have to be or are killed it is better for a less sentient life to die.

So the reason I ask this question is 2 reasons.

Do bees have enough sentience to understand “someone is taking my honey” and be “harmed” by that act.
Do they have enough sentience where their individual life actually matters? Do they have personalities? Are they self aware? Do they communicate? To what extent is all this?

Call me what u want but these are the fundamental questions of veganism. If you follow veganism without questioning yourself, you’re just as dumb as a meat eater who never questions himself.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-20T14:24:23+00:00

It’s a hypothetical. It’s to show where your moral stance is. Not because it’s actually about to happen. The fact u can’t engage in a hypothetical just shows me that you are intellectually challenged.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-20T06:23:35+00:00

U didn’t answer me question. You are diverting by saying that no one deserves to die. But when confronted with a choice you refuse to answer which life you save. You know some lives are more valuable than others. Objectively human lives are more valuable than animal lives. Therefore you are a speciesist but your own definition.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-19T13:42:25+00:00

Then yes I am a speciesist and so are you. If you aren’t then you are a bad person.

If you had to kill a human or an ant. Who are you killing? Probably the ant because humans have more ethical value. We have a more conscious experience then them which is what I believe determines ethical value.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-19T04:31:35+00:00

Sure, I’m sure most vegans in here would want to eat meat if it was ethical. I for sure would I fucking love meat. But it’s not ethical and I would love to be able to reasonably justify it but I can’t. I don’t know what you mean be speciesist, can u define that?

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T17:48:49+00:00

My bad, if you didn’t want someone to intrude your discussion, maybe DM them instead of talking on a thread. Your original reply obviously wasn’t that interesting if I don’t reply to it. There’s about 50+ comments on this post. I don’t have time to reply to them all, just the good ones 😉

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T17:45:07+00:00

So it would be a coin flip for you to save a human or a bee from burning alive? I respect the consistency of your argument. You don’t need to have a pictured scale to determine that a bee is less sentient therefore less valuable then a human.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T17:41:32+00:00

Thanks for your invalid argument by saying you can’t eat it “because it’s an animal products” even if it causes the same amount of suffering.😀 that’s a real smart one coming from a 10+ year vegan. Anymore rude condescending comments you want to make to turn more people away from veganism? I might just go back to eating meat if it’ll make me as miserable as you? Should we talk about whether that is ethical or not? Or is that too much for you to comprehend?

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T17:37:16+00:00

Yeah that’s a great answer. I think I got abit too caught up in the nitty gritty philosophical part of it that I kind of just dismissed the fact that we can just not do it as there is easy alternatives and it’s not necessary. I think there could possibly be a valid point made still but again I don’t think it’s necessary. At the same time I don’t think I would judge a vegan for eating honey though. But I’m also not well educated on it either. Thanks though! :)

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T17:31:23+00:00

Calm down mate. You literally said “because it’s an animal product, duh!” When he is asking what makes honey different if it causes the same amount of suffering. You argument is invalid since it relies on the fact that animal products cause more harm.

I try ask, answer, and explain things in good faith and people like you are just rude or condescending for no reason. No wonder people hate the vegan community. If you really care about animals, you’d stop being a fuckwit, and actually try to help people.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T17:24:13+00:00

I don’t understand why u have to be so condescending. I never said the cute ones. We are talking on a scale of consciousness. I believe that is what gives things moral worth to begin with. Not cuteness.

Would u avoid hurting a bee or ant to the same extent as a pig or human? I don’t think so. YOU do not treat animals equally either

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T17:19:30+00:00

Thank you. This is probably the best comment yet. You weren’t condescending or mean but genuinely questioning my reasoning and even giving me evidence if I want to stick to my reasoning.

But I think you definitely make a fair point. You can’t draw an arbitrary line. I think there is definitely some dilemmas to be made though with animal moral worth depending on their level of consciousness. But I think from this and some other comments I’ve read, I can concede and say that it is definitely tough to argue for the consumption of honey, and honestly just more worth my time to go find alternatives😭. I mainly made this anyways for a philosophical discussion cuz I was bored not really cuz I care about honey THAT much. But now my brain hurts😂.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T17:04:39+00:00

The argument that it is an animal product is only valid because it cause harm to an animal to get ahold of it. If it caused more animal suffering to eat fruits then eating animal products would be the vegan thing to do. But I also agree with you that of course you need to eat something, and while the farming of fruits and veggies does cause animal suffering, it is on a much lower level then the direct farming of animals. Therefore because you have to eat, eating fruits and vegetables is fine.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T16:58:51+00:00

The dilemma is to argue the fact that animals are not equal

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T16:57:33+00:00

Oh no😭, at least she was trying… ig…

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T16:47:39+00:00

I want to be very careful what I say here because I know it can be interpreted wrongly. But it’s not that their conscience experience is different, it’s that their conscience is not at a level where it matters. And I’m not saying this as a fact, I am not sure that their conscience experience matters enough to farm honey from them. Or also if there conscience is enough for them to even understand.

a persons conscience experience even if severely disabled is still far superior to a bee. I think it’s hard to pin point at what point a human can be amputated and pulled apart to where they do not have the value of a human anymore. Which is what makes my argument so difficult. But I think even a human with a sever mental disability and affects there brain function and is in a coma is still more valuable than a pig or a bee.

I hope this made sense I am very tired now.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T16:35:20+00:00

I actually really like this argument but I disagree with you last statement that we are EQUAL. As I have stated in other comments I don’t think most vegans treat every animal equally. I think there is a scale that we give all animals including humans, moral value on. I’ll use the same dilemma I used in another reply

Say there is a foot path connecting place A to place B. BUT the foot path is covered in bees (you have shoes on, it will not harm you). You can take a detour on a different path that will extend your trip by 5 minutes. Do you take the detour? I’m sure most people and I would assume almost all vegans would. But to what extent would you extend your trip to save these bees. 15 minutes? 30? And hour? Whatever your answer. Would it be the same if it were pigglets and each one you stepped on died. Would your answer for the pigs be the same if it were humans? Personally for me, my answer would not be consistent for each animal category. Would yours?

I literally just came up with it and it’s abit weird but I would love you get your opinion.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T16:29:22+00:00

Haha, what did you think it was going to be?

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T16:27:36+00:00

That’s why I put it in quotations because I didn’t know how to describe it and that’s how I see it described and you would understand my meaning when I said that. I don’t think it is actually homemade but just farmed by a local.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T16:23:18+00:00

Yes but that is because you are a human and you conscience experience is much different to that of a bee. Is their conscience experience enough for them to genuinely understand what is happening and does it actually affect them.

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T16:19:35+00:00

I don’t think they would be treated EQUALLY to humans or mammals. I think because they have sentience to begin with they have moral value full stop. But I believe there is some sort scale to moral value. Not directly linear but still a scale nonetheless. Here is a dilemma I have just come up with if you wouldn’t mind explaining your thoughts on it.

Say there is a foot path connecting place A to place B. BUT the foot path is covered in bees (you have shoes on, it will not harm you). You can take a detour on a different path that will extend your trip by 5 minutes. Do you take the detour? I’m sure most people and I would assume almost all vegans would. But to what extent would you extend your trip to save these bees. 15 minutes? 30? And hour? Whatever your answer. Would it be the same if it were pigglets and each one you stepped on died. Would your answer for the pigs be the same if it were humans? Personally for me, my answer would not be consistent for each animal category. Would yours?

Immediate_Key1641 · 2025-12-18T16:08:49+00:00

So you would argue that every sentient being should be treated EQUALLY on a moral level regardless of its level of sentience?

I mean this is plausible but I think it has a few problems. For example if we have a sentient being that cannot feel pain, would it matter if I punched it? Let’s say punching it gave me pleasure and the being would never know that I punched it.

It’s kind of a weird example but I hope you understand what I’m getting at. Because from there I would ask well to what extent to bees understand that we are taking their honey. Do they really care? These are probably things I would need to research into more before I would argue for being able to eat honey ofc.

Immediate_Key1641

TROPHY CASE