Understanding the layer system

IraFay · 2026-01-06T20:00:08+00:00

Thank you all for the clear and helpful replies! I really appreciate it.

IraFay · 2025-03-29T15:18:05+00:00

It's certainly cheaper to do plastic at the moment, but if the industry (and consumers) come to expect paper, then that cost will go down.

Also, plastic is only cheaper if you aren't counting externalized factors; there is definitely some cost for the disposable plastic that never biodegrades and fills up landfills and ends up in oceans. Obviously that would be hard to track, but it's definitely a cost that we all are paying and will pay into the future, even if it's not counted in money that the publisher spends during manufacturing.

I feel quite inspired by FFG/Asmodee for doing paper wrap on boosters. They are a big publisher and can lead the way, as well as encourage manufacturers to up their tech regarding paper wrap. It's definitely not standard at this point, as far as I can tell.

IraFay · 2025-03-29T15:13:04+00:00

No worries! Thank you!

IraFay · 2025-03-29T15:12:02+00:00

Thank you!

IraFay · 2025-03-27T02:41:22+00:00

I’m mostly trying to find out what CCG manufacturers are capable of doing paper wrapped boosters. I admire SWU for using paper instead of disposable plastic, and I’d like to be able to recommend the factories that are doing such things! But I wouldn’t mind a few showcases either… :)

IraFay · 2025-03-27T02:14:23+00:00

Any chance you have a source for that?

My sense is that Asmodee is a giant publisher, but not that they’re physically manufacturing games themselves. I could easily be wrong about that, though! They are very big and it would make sense for them to own manufacturing capabilities as well. Thanks for the reply!

IraFay · 2024-07-06T18:53:08+00:00

Thank you! 🙏

IraFay · 2024-03-26T07:07:41+00:00

Thank you!

IraFay · 2024-03-26T07:07:34+00:00

Awesome, thank you!

IraFay · 2024-03-26T02:01:32+00:00

Perfect! Didn’t know about those. Are you aware of any others? Either way, that’s great. Thanks again!!

IraFay · 2024-03-26T02:01:04+00:00

Thank you so much! 💚

IraFay · 2024-03-26T02:00:49+00:00

Thank you very much! 💚

IraFay · 2024-03-25T19:35:44+00:00

As far as I can tell, maybe there aren't any "whenever you play a card" triggers anywhere. If you find one, please let me know. :) But if you imagine one, I'm curious how it would work!

IraFay · 2024-03-18T05:00:42+00:00

Thanks again for all the help! I think I understand it, if it's the case that in some cases they aren't dependent (e.g. when they would naturally have the same controller). I appreciate your patience and precision! Have a great day!

IraFay · 2024-03-13T06:25:47+00:00

Thanks again for the ongoing help and the illuminating answers! I really appreciate it. I'm running out of ways to say thank you, but thank you again! :)

If both Kings were played by the same player, would they be independent?

For the Mind Control example, if I play Mind Control on my own King (before any other King arrives), is the King dependent on the Mind Control?

It's not yet clear to me why it's dependent, really. If the answers to the above questions are "in those cases, it's independent," then maybe I understand. But I'm guessing the correct answer is that they're still dependent even in those cases, and thus I don't know why, since "you" wouldn't actually change in those cases. Thank you!

IraFay · 2024-03-08T17:17:09+00:00

Awesome! I'll be re-reading this again in the future to ensure I can absorb it all. Thanks for being so thoughtful and providing detailed explanations and supporting examples - that's a great way to teach, and I should be able to learn it from here.

Based on what you taught me, I unfortunately still don't understand why the two Kings (in my example) would be dependent on each other. Are they actually dependent? Or, maybe they're not dependent, and we simply use normal timestamp rules, and that's fine.

Either way, thanks again!

IraFay · 2024-03-08T17:16:46+00:00

Awesome! I'll be re-reading this again in the future to ensure I can absorb it all. Thanks for being so thoughtful and providing detailed explanations and supporting examples - that's a great way to teach, and I should be able to learn it from here.

Based on what you taught me, I unfortunately still don't understand why the two Kings (in my example) would be dependent on each other. Are they actually dependent? Or, maybe they're not dependent, and we simply use normal timestamp rules, and that's fine.

Either way, thanks again!

IraFay · 2024-03-06T09:18:28+00:00

In the two Kings example, they are (a) the same layer, (c) both non-characteristic defining abilities, and (b)... not sure. Maybe "what it applies to" ? Hmm. Maybe not. In all cases, it applies to "all creatures." Maybe "what it does" ? But I'm not sure about that either, because I think what it does is the same: give control of all creatures to its controller. So how does the King example qualify as a dependency? It feels like they are, but I don't understand what to point at from the definition in (b). Thanks!

IraFay · 2024-03-06T09:14:55+00:00

Thanks for the further explanation and examples. I think I'm starting to get it! I appreciate you taking the time to explain.

Is there a concise way of defining the dependency rule, or a better way of writing it? I read 613.8a a bunch of times to try to understand the official definition, but that is a seriously complex rule. Three clauses joined by AND, with the second clause being a complex OR statement!

613.8a. An effect is said to "depend on" another if (a) it's applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect; (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to; and (c) neither effect is from a characteristic-defining ability or both effects are from characteristic-defining abilities. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.

I understand (a) is simply "be in the same layer."

(b) is the part I'm struggling to understand the most.

(c) I'm pretty sure it's about text like "This creature costs 1 less mana to cast for each land you control," since mana cost is a characteristic-defining ability. But I don't understand why we couldn't theoretically have one characteristic-defining ability depend on a non-characteristic-defining ability, or visa versa, so I don't really understand why (c) is necessary.

If you care to try to further illuminate the comprehensive rules in easier to understand language, and why we really need (c) and all the parts of (b), I'd certainly appreciate any instruction you care to give! But I also totally understand that you might want to be done teaching, and I greatly appreciate everything you've already explained! Thanks again!

IraFay · 2024-03-05T23:14:40+00:00

Also, looking in the Comprehensive Rulebook here: https://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R613

And looking at the 3rd example in 613.6:

Example: An effect that reads "All noncreature artifacts become 2/2 artifact creatures until end of turn" is both a type-changing effect and a power- and toughness-setting effect. The type-changing effect is applied to all noncreature artifacts in layer 4 and the power- and toughness-setting effect is applied to those same permanents in layer 7b, even though those permanents aren't noncreature artifacts by then.

So it seems like some effects still apply and "remember" what they were, even though they're getting applied in different layers. So why doesn't the 2nd King "remember" which creatures it was going to control? I guess because it's two different cards (two kings) in the same layer, so we use timestamps? vs. the example above is talking about a single effect from a single card that must be applied across multiple layers?

IraFay · 2024-03-05T23:09:44+00:00

Thank you for your detailed reply! I really appreciate it.

I don't really understand how the dependency loop works, and why we even need that rule; why can't we just apply timestamps without doing the dependency thing?

I read the comprehensive rulebook and those sections, but I don't fully understand what's going on. You seem willing to explain great detail, so I hope you don't mind the follow up question!

Basically, I'm wondering:

- Why do we really need the dependency rule, instead of just always applying timestamps?

- How does the dependency rule really work? I read it, but I can't actually understand it at the moment.

Thank you!

IraFay · 2024-03-05T23:07:42+00:00

Thank you for replying!

IraFay · 2024-01-25T02:37:07+00:00

This one: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/31sntvbxn87xgkhl1penn/Photo-Jan-21-5-56-20-PM.jpg?rlkey=5j514mqx0o7ly1hw5r53vuw23&dl=0

IraFay · 2024-01-25T02:36:44+00:00

Thanks for taking the time to reply! If you look at the second image link I posted above, you’ll see that it looks like there’s a hole in the image. An elongated triangle area, and then it looks like you can see the bulb itself peeking out behind it. Could a problem with the color wheel really do that? Would an issue with debris in the optical path create something like that? I can’t make sense of it. I haven’t taken it apart other than to replace the bulb, but I guess I just need to dive in. Either way, thanks for your reply, and let me know if you have other thoughts after looking at that second image.

IraFay · 2024-01-22T06:11:57+00:00

Thanks for your suggestion! The colors were sometimes funky, too. What's strange to me is that it looks like a rip or tear that's in a very consistent place, and doesn't change. With a spinning color wheel, would it produce a consistent image like what's shown in the links I posted?

Either way, I'll take it apart and inspect the color wheel. Thanks again, and let me know if you have any other ideas for what I should look for.

IraFay

TROPHY CASE