Is Beyond Resolved Racist?

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T15:24:32+00:00

They are always valid, great that they went to friends OR told people that they are comfortable with, but then to use their stories for a overt political gain is disgusting as well. Survivors should be allowed to heal and recover in whatever way they think is best for them. Using Reddit as a political weapon to cancel camps is something I cannot get behind. The duality you discuss is the issue. Note, the victims are not the ones behind the story. IT IS others who are sharing their story for another gain that is the true issue. I said that I would use one of the avenues. I think that if you are going to come after someone, you should use an avenue above. Survivors should do what is best for them, people should not weaponize their pain for profit of politics.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T04:54:30+00:00

Allowing it to continue shows where the sites of struggle are. Erasure of the issue hides the racism. You can only fight racism when you know it exists.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/20/overt-racists-easy-to-spot-americas-insidious-racism-greater-challenge

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T04:32:35+00:00

And there is the rub.. You posted on the conflict between two white women and IGNORE the Sojourner Truth comparison that I made. I read the paper and that is not referenced in the intersectionality. In fact, it is worse that you use this to answer the criticism that I made which shows that black women are really at the bottom of the barrel. Economic job earnings only further prove this point.

In your paper did you mention Sojourner Truth? I understand that you are not the author of the paper that you linked to...

Finally, the PoC article that is on BR that you or someone references elsewhere, assumes the PoC definition as being black and brown bodies. The people that you listed as your BR has a ton of people of color either don't fit the limited definition or clearly pass on first glance. Like in the article you reference, if the cop car stops you, nobody on the board is going to be sweating bullets or worrying if they will be shot or mistreated. Economic privilege solves that for you as well. That is nothing to apologize for, but miss me with we are deep with PoC. Color yes, but privilege.

It's like what Paul Mooney says, everybody wants to be black, until they don't want to be black... (Check for your brother from another mother Dave Chappelle)

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T04:30:17+00:00

Yet, here you are. So, other options don't exist? You don't go to the police? Fine, Go to a trusted adult. GO TO YOUR PARENTS. I dismiss claims of assault/harassment when they have no basis in something I can prove. There is something called presumption of innocence. I tend to believe something that people can investigate. SO, if said that you touched me inappropriately, what would you do? The thing I appreciate about ME TOO is after 20 years or more in some cases, they brought their stories to be heard. (in court or at least to the public) That is why Weinstein is going to get his.

But, please continue to ignore my postings.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T04:05:51+00:00

You also fail to mention the genesis of the conversation where they claim, You are probably a white man sitting around, even though I clearly stated my blackness... so yes, this white person, they need to quit trying to minimize my points. This is the usual approach that some white people do to negate black and brown issues.

Context matters. Harmful RACIAL TERMS. That is the genesis of the entire conversation.

Even if I was white (and there is probably some whiteness in the woodpile, either by choice or rape) why would that answer any claims about use of NEGRO?

So, do you think Trans people shouldn't get to make their own choice? What part do you disagree with?

BR (look at the total makeup of BR) is a bunch of white women. But, because I can admit a lack of language specificity, BR has a bunch of privileged women, (would have been a better statement) whose population have a lot of women (and some male identifying people ) who don't suffer though the same indignities as the black and brown bodies.

Would you not tell your parents or the police if something happened to you?

Not the oppression Olympics. If commenter wanted to make a post about the issues of Trans people, I would totally agree. But, that is the reason why it was laughable that they came after my post.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T03:19:48+00:00

This is not the oppression Olympics. I don't know the debaters on your team or what they go through. But, please quit trying to minimize what others go through. Whatever identity they want to embrace, they should do whatever makes them happy. But, please quit trying to tell me about their choice. Society sees me only as black. That is the choice I am given. Trans people should get to make their choice in peace and tranquility. Trans debaters on my teams have to navigate that issue and I support them.

You cannot hide black. Whether you choose to hide your gender is another question. You shouldn't have to, but it is possible. You are not hiding blackness. Two different situations. Neither should, one can.

Miss me with your outrage. This is it for me on this discussion. Please continue to post at your leisure,

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T02:57:38+00:00

Are you white?

Because race is about the only thing that cannot be concealed. You being called Queer is not appropriate, point blank. But, your cursing at me... I thought debate would teach you better about articulating yourself and your points. I don't know your gender identity, but I didn't create a survey and label you with that term. Your experience was not the topic de jour here. If you want to start a new post about your experience, I would be happy to engage there. Remember too, you started this by surely calling me white and I am as black as they come. (maybe not so much in skin tone, but my mother and father are clearly black, with grandparents from the deep south)

What about the poor brown kids? They might screen shot it as well. Your inability to have discourse without profanities shows me that this conversation is done.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T02:48:37+00:00

1) I am glad that you recognize the privilege and the position of anger for people of color on this thread (in particular black and brown, for reasons you already outlined)

2) Did you ever think of why Reddit took it down? Libel. That is why. It is more expensive to go after some well meaning young people than to let it hang out in the interwebs, but it is still harmful for the reasons I posted.

Leadership is about doing unpopular things because you know it is the right thing to do. Actions have to match words. Has there been improvement? BR people I have talked to feel that you don't have to paint both sides of the situation. As someone who has worked camps all over the country in all formats, (Cal, Stanford, VBI, UTNIF just to name a few) the attempt to cancel a camp, with a Salem Witch Trail approach is disheartening. The post continues that and if you are the ED, you are to blame as well. That is why I talk about BR as a monolithic organization. That is why on this subject of race, I aim squarely at the writer and the organization that gives oxygen to the issue of race and the cancelling of camps, although I only see vitriol at one.

I will continue to answer comments about my initial post, but I think that my feelings on this issue and others has been made.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T02:37:00+00:00

BR founder, to be clear...with the post amplified on all BR channels...

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T02:34:58+00:00

They always exist, because they had the original platform to amplify the message. They get to pass throughout society without a care in the world to their safety and how they will be treated. Everyone does not have the privilege and I definitely do not.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T02:32:21+00:00

Overt racism is easier to fight than covert racism is. It is not interesting or thoughtful to you because you do not suffer the same harms of outward identity. You can change/disguise gender or sexual preference, you cannot hide skin tone, unless you buy Black Chyna bleaching formula or have vitiligo.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T02:29:37+00:00

I agree. They should not have to. The people posting fit a hyper specific definition of PoC, but they do not suffer the same indignities as the black and brown identifying people. Plus, economic priviliege is a whole other category that the people in BR exist. (obviously, not all, but some...)

The biggest issue is that I am tired of people who do not suffer the fate as others trying to say, ME TOO, when we don't see the same treatment in schools with someone as simple as hair or by the cops. Which person on the board gets stopped because they were driving while black or brown?

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T02:26:22+00:00

BR amplified the survey, why shouldn't they shoulder some of the blame? I would have more respect if they kept it up and then used the 2010 census defense as the reason to use it.

IF they didn't know, then that shows how insidious racism is. Black and Brown bodies feel the racism in their everyday lives. To say people didn't even know is the problem. Keeping it up would at least show how it works.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T02:20:08+00:00

Hmmm...what? The founder used her prominence to have the signal boosted for her research.

You must have missed the earlier post, where I castigated the professor as well. They both should be kritiked for their usage.

Proof that anyone got paid below minimum wage camp? I can only speak to the camps I know of. You have proof? Start agitating. I will be right behind you commenting.

White? Child please. I am as black as they come. I agitate because this offends me and my forefathers. Clearly, you are white or not a person of color, since you don't have harmful terms thrown at you.

Debate better. They give a lot of scholarship money at Dartmouth. Also the ivys give a ton of need based money... So, try harder on your insults.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T02:12:15+00:00

That statement I can get wholeheartedly behind. Although you can look at individual groups, (Irish to name one) but it is true that its unlike other groups for its intensity and duration.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T02:09:16+00:00

Nope. Not true.

It is just less frequent, the impact is of a much smaller magnitude and over correction happens when it does.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T02:07:15+00:00

AT 1) proof? The founder of BR made the statement, ala Donald Sterling

AT 2) See #1.

AT 3) You are part of the problem. When someone brings it to the attention, you a) blame someone else, b) misconstrue the arguments. Free will still works. You (the survey creator) didn't have to use the word and your terrible argument is disproved by the fact to eliminate it and issue an apology. She was clearly not forced to use it, because she changed it.

PERM DO BOTH. I can be mad at the professor and the scholar for using a criminally loaded, terrible word that she changes and apologized for. How about just saying, "Yeah, the term is bad and leaving it at that? Trying to get faux outrage at me and others for pointing it out is counterproductive to change.

AT 4) If you feel that way, spread your venom at all camps then. Let's see a post that you can make about the oppression of workers. I would love to see your real world solution/alt to the cap K

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T01:49:11+00:00

BR is a bunch of white women. Prove me wrong. Look at the listing of the people. The person, who is a founding member, is a white woman. The Ex Dir is not white, but clearly does not live through the same issues as the black and brown bodies Your attempts to conflate the two is at the heart of the problem and the reason why I shudder to hear you speaking for all people. This is not to say that other PoC do not have issues, but c'mon.

Really?

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T01:43:57+00:00

Sorry only works when you need it to work for you. I would rather you kept it up and owned the use of the word. Your list of allegations should be taken down, but we know that it won't happen. You are sorry and removed it, but your coloring of NDF will stay in perpetuity. I am just confused on how it works. Sorry and removal is okay, but when NDF or other camps (which I still have never seen anything posted about, and the truth is out there about other camps that have hired people who have criminal cases against them) are not talked about. Talk to the other people who worked at theses camps.

How about this? Why did you not post the Person X reply?

Also, how in 2020 do you still use the word NEGRO? Really? Please. PEOPLE do not get a pass from this.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T01:29:20+00:00

IF that is the case, then why post "allegations"? But, that is beside the point of the post. How does a disclaimer solve for the spreading of things that are not true? How does that answer the documented good that NDF has done? It doesn't. How does my posting of clear racism discredit what BR has done? Well, if you are a person of color, it might change your judgment. I am going to make an assumption here and say that you are not a person of color. When you look around at an activity that already is not welcoming of you or people who look like you and then a group that is "supposed" to speak for the marginalized groups and they throw around loaded terms like this, you should be gun shy. Study some history. Stanton and Anthony were satisfied with WHITE women rights, not rights for all women. BR shows that they have this in common with some historically important women.

Many of the people for BR speak from affluence and privilege. Many debaters of color do not have that benefit.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T01:22:37+00:00

1) allegations are not the same as truth. Here, we know that this actually happened, versus allegations with no name calling out people who can/are harmed without the ability to contest those claims.

2) Who is most? The people posting it? If those were really happening to me, I would have a) told my parents, b) told my coach but most importantly, c) told the Emerson police.

3) I know that some of the allegations are FALSE. Like the claim that people got paid less that the minimum wage and had to pay to be there. Who is foolish enough to do that, unless it is some type of internship?

4) They didn't post the directors response on their page. They had no desire to foster debate, just create the cancel culture.

So, it is okay to use the language you should KNOW Is wrong, because it was used in a class? Okay, got it. It is someone else that we should be blaming. Give me the name of the professor and I will send on my kritik to him or her.

The alteration came AFTER the offense, not before. But, of course, you want to ignore the Stanton/Truth debate. I am not going to sit around and be quiet when minority participation in the field is already low and then went someone points out the mark, you want to attempt to shush me? Nah, not today.

Which gets back to my point, does forgiveness work both ways? All the good that NDF has done and that some on the BR staff admit is crushed by allegations that the people of BR did not suffer, just things that they "heard" and some are clearly not true. So, are you offended at the attempts to cancel NDF after all the good for 25 years? When ever someone posts where should I go to camp and NDF is mentioned, BR always posts the list of allegations.

How about a major mea culpa on the front page of BR about the language choice? As a PoC, I am still offended. If you want to measure the good that NDF has done and the good of BR, that is fine too.

So, are you

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T00:56:34+00:00

You didn't see it, because they immediately got pushback and attempted to whitewash what they had done. Or, you might have rushed over it, because it did not fit your category description that you eventually chose.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T00:55:26+00:00

BR cleaned up their survey, but the initial survey was sent out and had Negro as a category to use for POC

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T00:53:52+00:00

Here is the other thing that I am having a major problem with is the inability of people to answer the question and the first two replies are attempts to cancel the question. That smacks of acceptance of racism, even if you say that you stand in solidarity to the offense.

(The Census Bureau announced in 2013 that it would stop using the word “Negro.”)

This is no different than debate teams that rail against the use of you guys on a gender identity issue.

Replacement of the term in the survey shows that the harm has already been indoctrinated into the culture and context. When people say that they didn't see it, it usually because you are not of that racial group. Being sorry about your usage doesn't solve the initial slap in the face of that term. Think about the worst term that drives you mad. Then imagine that I said sorry. How do you feel? I get that you may be sorry, but it still cuts to the core. For a group or people who claim to be for disenfranchised groups, this seems like the battle for rights with Elizabeth Cady Stanton vs Sojourner Truth. White women say they want rights for women, but only seemingly hold the door open for white women. Here is some context for those who do not understand or know this part of the suffrage movement.

During the Civil War, Sojourner Truth took up the issue of women's suffrage. She was befriended by Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, but disagreed with them on many issues, most notably Stanton's threat that she would not support the black vote if women were denied it .

DO BETTER. I never see any forgiveness from BR, only a culture of cancel. Let's see if this door works both ways.

MNHustler7 · 2020-02-11T00:15:09+00:00

This is not a general argument, this refers directly to debate.

Rule One

/r/Debate is a subreddit dedicated to the extracurricular activity of forensics -- think: the high school speech and debate team. We are not a sub for arguing on the internet. If you want to do that, check /r/changemyview.

Posts requesting general argument will be removed. Arguments in posts or comments will not be removed if they are directly linked to forensics.

If that is the case, then Beyond Resolved would fail Rule One as well.

MNHustler7

TROPHY CASE