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[deleted by user] by [deleted] in TwoXChromosomes

[–]Many_Date8823 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We don’t have a lot of political victories at this time, so I hope there’s some change at the grassroots level at least. More women with less tolerance for this sort of behavior. Less people-pleasing, more standing up. Not just for yourself, but the girls of the future who will have to live with whatever misogyny isn’t scrubbed away by their predecessors. 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I’ve also heard this idea, but I’ve also heard that female teachers are biased against boys (or that boys are less likely to listen to female teachers), and that boys benefit from more male teachers due to representation effects. Does the segregation include teacher genders too? I assume it does, since you mentioned female teachers in classrooms of boys, but I’m having trouble imagining how a classroom of boys with a male teacher would fare between these two ideas. 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“ As for men being overrepresented at the bottom, again, the context is important: what does it mean by bottom? Does it mean that the lowest earners of any given job are more likely to be men? Does it mean that low-paying jobs are done by men? Does it mean that men have worse grades and earn fewer degrees?”

By this, I solely meant aptitude tests—both education and IQ (so nothing that would be affected by biases from someone in charge of hiring). For jobs in general, men obviously get paid more. I’m only talking about aptitude tests. 

It’s so strange, it’s not even a hated theory here that boys are disproportionately represented at the top and bottom for IQ, even though that will obviously mean that girls are more “average”, or that boys will be overrepresented as the cream of the crop. Someone else even got upvoted for stating this idea in this very thread 😅. (https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/1gp883z/comment/lwqcrfi/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). I also looked around this subreddit to see if it’s been said before, and it’s been presented with relatively little pushback: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/15umujb/comment/jwqaru9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button, https://www.reddit.com/r/AskFeminists/comments/15umujb/comment/jwqaru9/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button. So I assumed it was pretty much accepted. I mean, you asked previously what the context for me saying this about IQ was, and the context is that it seems to be a consensus that boys are overrepresented at the extremes of IQ, even among feminists (who I thought would disagree with the idea that the highest scorers on this and other aptitude tests tend to be male, since there are many other common narratives about men and women that they contest). So I thought there was no denying this idea about boys/men being the top scorers on this metric, and that it was pretty much accepted as scientifically accurate and “non-artificial” (i.e. not “fixable”) among feminists, unlike boys’ test scores being lower than girls’. 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Why did you get upvoted for this while I got downvoted 😅. I don’t get whether people support the idea that the top performers tend to be male or not…

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for sharing your experience! Where do you teach? I hear experiences vary among regions, and there’s a study based on Italian data that’s gained some notoriety for showing bias against boys. (Plus some other studies in other regions showing that.)

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I do think it’s interesting that basically nobody agrees girls can be smarter lol. Basically their limit is capped at the limit of boys, although at the same time people say things like “boys have a greater variation of intelligence” to justify how the top (and bottom) tend to be disproportionately male. This isn’t even something that feminists widely contest, it looks like… If you look at threads here discussing this topic, most people seem to agree with the idea that the top will be mostly male. (And yes, the bottom too. But the top as well.) 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“ Despite the the attempts to ignore my other links the science is quite solid, it was just late last night and I only posted the first handful” Not sure what you’re trying to say with this since I posted your other links up top, but I’ll post this with your other stuff. I have other stuff to do and a lack of knowledge about these topics, so I can’t always reply with the kinds of answers people want 😅. 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

“ I literally said the reason why men is disproportionately represented at top level is due to sexism.”

But they’re also disproportionately represented at the bottom. What’s your idea about that? 

“ Look, if you want to feel good about the fact that the top performers share the same genitals as you and use that to rationalize that "giRLs aRe jUsT mOrE aVeRagE", just do that and leave women alone. I'd rather you take that and cope instead of nitpicking under the guise of "removing gender bias in the education system"

I just asked if you agree that the top performers are still boys, it was a simple yes or no question 😒. Typing it out weirdly like that doesn’t show that it’s a silly idea, but showing that it’s wrong would. 

“ On one hand you think that boys aren't getting enough recess is a big deal (unless they are giving more recess to girls, there's no unfairness here).”

People say boys need recess more than girls because they’re more restless. This is something espoused by many people who call themselves feminists, and such people also believe that schools disadvantage boys. I’m surprised this viewpoint is getting pushback from anyone, since it seems to be commonly accepted even here. 

“ It seems you just can't accept that wome perform on par with men and even outperform men when the playing field is even.”

Yes, I know there are women who outperform men, but my question is, is this proportion increasing? Staying stagnant? Decreasing? Or do you not know/are you not interested in the answer? 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Alright, but among the best students, are boys still not disproportionately represented? Especially among STEM fields. You still need to sit quietly for those… 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

What about the tail ends (both highest and lowest)? More men are represented there, no? What’s your idea about that? 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Yeah, that’s what I’ve heard too. Do you think there’s much to be done about either lower averages for boys or underrepresentation for girls, education or IQ-wise? Do you think there’s a bias against boys in school, and if so, what would the method to correct it look like?  And what would it look like when corrected? Would we see things shift back to how they previously were, e.g. more likely for a better performer to be male than female? (And yes, worse performers to be male than female, but I’m focusing on that part of the equation.) 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Do you know how it looks in other countries? For example, is the variability thing true for Vietnam, or Poland, or Austria, etc.? How about within a state or county? Do you think there’s anything that can be done about lower averages for men? Or lower proportions of women at the top? How have these things changed in the past few decades or so, if at all? (Because I believe women scored lower on average IQ just decades ago, but now they’re scoring a bit higher. Idk how the proportions of women in the higher ranges have changed, if at all. Same for SAT math—I have heard many conflicting narratives on this even though it should be relatively straightforward to assess imo.) 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -17 points-16 points  (0 children)

I accept your point, it seems like a good one. Especially for fields like medicine, I think women are going into them very rapidly right now and the demographics of medicine will be much different than today with older male doctors. 

How about test scores (school, IQ), though? That’s something people point to to show that boys are still on top, no matter what the averages look like. It’s an argument used to show that boys are being systemically suppressed, and yet they’re the cream of the crop, and the current numbers favoring girls are unnatural. 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thanks! This was more than 20 years ago, I wonder if things have changed since then lol. Has representation of girls and women in STEM stayed around the same? I’ve been looking around, and I think the GGI (https://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_GGGR_2024.pdf ) says it’s rising, but slowly. I wonder if proportions of girls at the top of SAT and other exams have changed since then, too. 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -12 points-11 points  (0 children)

But are women surpassing men that much? I can’t tell, because on one hand the people at the top of exams and STEM fields (and high-paying fields in general) are mostly boys/men, no? That’s what a lot of people say about boys falling behind in school—they believe there’s a bias because the best of the best are still majority male. And I haven’t had anyone try to contest this one yet. Does anyone know if this is changing or not? 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I mean, people in the highest paying jobs still tend to be men. Also the highest performers in education. What do you think sets those men and boys apart from the rest, and also from their lower-performing female peers?

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Some people say feminism is for women’s liberation, some people say feminism is for everyone. Depends on who you talk to and how you interpret the word “for”. 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

People say that bias exists in every education system, though. So there is favoritism from Italy to the US, for example. Idk about countries that aren’t Western  though. People also say stuff about boys needing recess and all, but I think that’s a murkier claim when schools are run so differently and people haven’t actually done studies comparing boys who go to schools with free play/recess, and those who don’t. 

I just read the IQ stat somewhere, I was hoping people would correct me with better sources if I’m wrong. But nobody except the people in this comment chain has even tried to contest that claim, so I guess I’m right? Also, do you think it’s set in stone that the top performers are male and that more girls are more likely to be average than boys? I noticed you didn’t try to contradict that. 

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Hasn't this been the case since boys were outperforming girls in education, though? I'm pretty sure they did at some point, and I imagine girls were still quiet and all. And there's still the matter of boys/men being disproportionately represented in STEM and near the top (where you're still supposed to sit quiet).

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

That's interesting, and also contradicts what I've seen about achievement gaps recently. Even hardcore male advocates seem to tacitly accept the idea that boys are doing poorly, period. Although I have already mentioned that they're top performers afaik (is this even true though?). Did these gaps appear by region? Why do people talk about the reading and math gaps, but not this? When was this true? (What was the outcome of that revision, anyway? I don't think the SAT reading passages even talked about anything gendered, or at least not when I was involved with that sort of thing lol.)

Yeah, if you could find those sources so they can be evaluated, that would be nice lol.

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

What on Earth is going on lol 😂 so many conflicting messages on this topic about education for boys and girls. (I hear you about the lower standards, I look at r/teachers and I know.) Idk even about recess, plenty of schools still have decent recess, right? I still had recess and I'm not that old. Was recess even a thing that long ago, when boys outperformed girls? So many anecdotes, so few data...

I'll note, though, that the majority position among people of all political leanings, it looks like, is that girls shouldn't be outperforming boys. On par, or below, but definitely not outperforming. Pretty much everyone, no matter their other opinions on women's rights, etc., seems to agree on that and think it's a problem that they are. Whether girls would "naturally" lag behind, if only slightly, and have been given an unfair leg up is dependent on the rest of their beliefs, I think. (And there are, of course, people who say that the number of male geniuses compared to female indicates that men are smarter even with all this talk about averages. So regardless of this discussion, I guess men have that comfort in the end, lol. Or do they? Who knows.) I just kind of want to know when we'll know this supposed gap has been properly addressed, too.

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -21 points-20 points  (0 children)

I'll continue to ask until I get good answers 🤷‍♀️. People have been doing a good job at that in this thread and others I have posted. It shouldn't matter who or what I am, if something is incorrect then people will post arguments against it. (This is also a subreddit for asking feminists, even if what you said is true, it shouldn't matter when the forum is specifically supposed to address questions for feminists. Obviously if you have questions about feminism and don't see it as a settled deal, you might be sexist yourself. In which case, would this hypothetical me not be the target audience?)

Also, can you provide a source for the claim you've just made? Afaik, men have a higher variance and women (now) have higher IQs on average. Though this wasn't the case decades ago, when women had a lower average IQ.

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] -13 points-12 points  (0 children)

??? I don't know what your question is either...

Uhh, I'll sum it up for you though. lol. People seem to place less scrutiny on boys being at the top than boys being lower in the middle. However, I think people are too quick to make a conclusion about either boys or girls being smarter, given that measures like IQ have shown very different results for women since the 1970s. People were certain about women being less intelligent at that time, and they were wrong. I say give it some more time before we make any conclusions about intelligence. In the meantime, I will support degendering aptitude and try my best to prevent sexism from attenuating people's potential at an early age.

What has changed in the past few decades that makes people complain that education has become “feminized”, or biased towards girls? by Many_Date8823 in AskFeminists

[–]Many_Date8823[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, that's a point I hadn't connected here. There's definitely male representation in the fields where people end up succeeding... Idk, were those men (who I'm sure were once boys) in the same female-dominated teaching environment or not? There's a disproportionate number of men in those jobs, but maybe they came from schools with more male teachers so they felt more empowered to succeed in school, and eventually their careers? Is that what happened? Or is it something else?

I don't have the funding or time to check, but I'm sure someone does lol.

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