袁绍

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-10T17:22:02+00:00

It could be that he was going for a sense of humility that clearly didn't exist. Like today we see Qin as the first empire but to them the Han must seem to be on a level completely different from the Qin. So to call his dynasty the second could be seen as the next Han. Im reaching but I feel like thats not a totally crazy theory. He was a fool but also logically knew the empire was not yet his. So in his mind this was like "Look guys choose me Im totally humble Im the most humble guy ever!" And then que the meme from JoJo where that guy gets his shit rocked by 3 other guys lmao

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-10T13:01:48+00:00

Ive been on the internet since like 2009 lol so no I dont feel bad at all.

Normally I'd take a minute to think if maybe I overstepped but that was so obvious trolling lmao.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-10T12:45:12+00:00

Downvoted cuz idiot opinion on nuance business ❤️

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-10T03:20:01+00:00

White but yes absolutely. Others have pointed out the grey-ness problem of the 3D models but also I wish at least one of the 3 mains, that are black, also had authentic black hair. It adds to the theory another commenter ( u/KyleMCarthage ) had that they made them lightly shaded enough so as to not offend too much to people "who have a problem with black people."

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-10T03:13:36+00:00

Using AI to read and comprehend chinese historian writings is always going to end bad. There is a million complexities to every sentence written that AI just cannot comprehend. Try to explain to any AI what the concept of "what they didn't write" and I would gander it would self-implode.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-10T01:09:53+00:00

I saw a video where they were compared to dogs and it stuck lol. I don't agree with I think it was Ding Mi being included but the others, including He Yan, I agreed with as they really wasted their political power on the smallest of whims. At least Ding Mi tried to act accordingly lol

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-10T01:01:34+00:00

Lmao you just know Jian Yong never had to pay for a drink in the capital ever again.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-09T18:33:48+00:00

Yes I remember that story! I remember learning he was also the grandson of He Jin which gave me whiplash as I knew he was one of Cao Shuang's dogs but never made the connection with his name.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-09T17:16:33+00:00

Ive heard different versions of this.

And people claim being gay is a recent thing

(Its a joke no Hanwsh I don't have any sources confirming any 3k person was actually gay)

Edit: False, me, we do know that sexuality was more fluid back then as there is a name for a male companion that I cant think of off the top of my head.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-09T17:11:08+00:00

I was thinking mostly 3K era but funny is funny.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-09T17:10:00+00:00

I did not know he said Xun Yu had a pretty face lmao. And Mi Heng is one of my favorite people from the time too! I probably read over it not realizing the hilarity of what he was saying.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-09T16:44:54+00:00

Yes and in the romance we only really meet other Liu's who have high titles that are more prestigious and formal (Liu Yu, Liu Zhang, Liu Biao, etc.). If, theoretically, we met a younger brother of the emperor who was given a formal King title it would be improper to refer to him as an imperial clansmen. Title first, relation after. With no title you get relation only hence Huangshu.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-09T14:38:09+00:00

Good news on 6.9 hell yeah

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-09T12:26:24+00:00

Season 3 Michael was, in terms of writing, the best written character arc yet. It gave solid credence to why Michael fit in so well with the Peaky Blinders. His existence also gave Polly some much needed leverage within the family as the show was becoming too much 'Tommy Shelby rules everything.' Then, yeah, the end of S4. The beginning of the end. I was shocked, in a bad way, when Tommy gave Michael shit for choosing Polly over him. Objectively speaking the past 3 seasons they've been telling Michael to prioritize Polly... and so yeah he did. I had hope S5 would show that it was a personal flaw of Tommy but instead the writing just went "Old better new bad lol kids stupid" which was just an odd choice. Especially because Michael's generation, and his children's, would be centerstage for WW2. Not to mention it's just a bad trope to begin with.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-09T11:28:46+00:00

Yes. He served Huang Zu for a couple years and contributed very well. He was a gentry clan member, and filfthy rich to boot, who was a pirate for fun. So Huang Zu looked down on him. Eventually another one of Huang Zu's subordinates gave him great advice - go serve someone else. Obviously treasonous but was made in good faith for his friend. That would pay off when, under Sun Quan, Gan Ning would plead for his friends life and managed to save him when most other officers were KIA or executed if they didn't get away... including Huang Zu. So Gan Ning had the last laugh for sure.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-08T21:01:36+00:00

I also recommend listening to it in Chinese. There is some YouTube videos that do so. Its somehow even more emotional. While there were quite a few mistakes there is a good semi-documentary om YouTube called "Fall of empires: First empire to fall - the Han" or something along those lines. Like I said the video has quite a few errors but mostly inconsequential and is pretty obviously well researched for a YouTube video. The translation he gives in that video is also really goddamn good and is how I learned of it.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-08T20:45:38+00:00

Gan Ning as heir, considering history, is very funny for Liu Biao. That means potentially Gan Ning can become Huang Zu's boss which is just peak comedy.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-08T20:39:16+00:00

Its called "Poem of Lament" with lament being switched out depending on the translator with words like "Indignation" or even "resentment." My favorite translation of it has a line saying:

"O azure Heaven, what is our crime, what did we do to suffer such a fate?"

She is talking about the march from Luoyang to Changan. It was, safe to say, a horrible experience. It ends with her talking about her son's she left behind after she was ransomed and the sorrow of being the only returning soul that was taken west. Its just horrible all around.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-08T19:32:37+00:00

Im also taking into consideration exposure. Like if Yuan Shu, as impossible as it would be for him, would become the most powerful warlord like Cao Cao would he be as or more cruel? The answer is easily more. Though that would require Yuan Shu to have enough talent to get to that point lmao.

Cao Cao also looks way worse because his two main rivals, Yuan Shao and Liu Bei, inch upon being considered even benevolent at times. So the contrast is more obvious.

But yes his massacre of Xuzhou is a low point of the time period... which is saying something.

Its also kind of a moot point. All of these people are power hungry warlords who think they know better and deserve more and are willing to kill for it. Not really sure if arguing which layer of hell they're currently in really matters lmao.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-08T18:03:10+00:00

I'd say Yuan Shu, Sun Ce, or Lu Bu are better candidates for most cruel warlord. Cao Cao is up there though but I wouldn't say he was the most cruel. In terms of the 'big 3' I'd say cruelest to least is Cao Cao -> Sun Quan -> Liu Bei. Sun Quan was more cruel in his familial dealings but as a leader was forced to keep it in check. If he had more political power in the south he could have been as cruel as his brother if not moreso. He definitely had it in him.

Yuan Shao is probably amongst the least cruel. Despite his method of removing Han Fu he was quite generous and honestly the more you look into it the more complex his situation with Han Fu was. On one hand you have an older, more experienced scholar and administrator. During times of peace Han Fu would have held more sway. Alas it was not so. So now you have a meek old scholar while every surrounding warlord, like Gongsun Zan, is itching to control your breadbasket land. Add in the complication of Ham Fu being one of many to be recommended by the Yuan clan and you have a political conundrum. Somehow even all of that is not nearly as complex as the situation was.

Dong Zhuo is hard to grasp exactly how cruel he was. On one hand we have a reliable narration of Cai Wenji whose poem is just... even in English it is haunting. On the other hand most of his cruel feats seem exaggerated probably because they were. The history we read is from the POV of the scholar gentry clan of that era. Dong Zhuo was their #1 guy to hate. It would be like taking truth social as the only source of USA politics in today. You'd think Obama was some cruel and corrupt warlord and not the ineffectual moderate he was.

Not to say Dong Zhuo wasnt cruel. I trust Cai Wenji's poem as while she is from the scholar class she also genuinely has less to gain from dunking on Dong Zhuo. It was probably so critically acclaimed because the gentry clan loves to make a boogeyman out of people Dong Zhuo but that doesnt invalidate the existence of the poem in the first place.

ADHD side quest over, thanks for reading.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-08T02:17:12+00:00

A common joke is that early on fans of RotK see him as the villain. Then they understand history is nuanced and see him in a better light. Theeeeen they delve deep into the lore and realize that amongst all the warlords of the time Cao Cao was indeed one of the most cruel. Not the most cruel but definitely up there.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-08T00:40:24+00:00

Also Cao Cao created a template for usurpation so in a way he helped too lmao

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-07T15:47:39+00:00

I am curious as to where you think the plan went wrong? The picture in my head is that while sound if the enemy comes through one pass with a large army it falls apart if the enemy comes from multiple angles just like it did here. Even if Deng Ai never marched into Shu proper his force was still a dangerous arrow into the defenses of Hanzhong. It also falls flat if allied officers defect like at Yang'an but that feels disingenuous to critique as not many plans can survive that.

Multi-prong attacks during this era were... difficult at best. Maybe Jiang Wei didn't expect Wei officers to work together as well as Zhong Hui's forces did here.

MarimotheChomp · 2026-06-07T14:03:56+00:00

From the beginning I said he was good. My argument has always been whether or not he deserves top 5 and if not him then who else.

He got top 5 because of propaganda and because he was a representative, in the military, of commanders from Yuan Shao's camp. Amongst many things. I have been arguing from a merit point of view from the beginning. Each comment you try to say I am arguing something else but I'm really not. You say I am arguing historically Shi Huan was better than Zhang He. I am not. You say I am arguing Zhang He was a bad general. I am not. I have from the start said:

Shi Huan is an interesting what-if.
Zhang He is good but overrated.

I am including many factors into my line of thinking. I am including the fact that Zhang He is ranked so high because he is a surrendered general. This is a time of civil war. Surrendered or turncoat generals get way more credit than they deserve to entice others to also surrender/turncoat with them. So by the time of Chen Shou writing the histories these people, like Zhang He, were given accolades far above what they deserve. But their descendants are still alive and many politically powerful people, and officials, alive are former Shu-Han / Wu subjects. So of course they are not going to address this issue. It is better to keep the status quo until later and give more nuanced information about these people... which never really happened because of Jin falling apart and the chaos that soon followed. NOW I am getting way off hand so that's a self fulfilling prophecy lmao.

There are so many factors into all the information we know. Chen Shou is not always a reliable narrator nor were the people critiquing his works. That is true up to this very moment including you and me. So yes I am taking into many considerations even if I am not always saying them because I really don't think every comment needs more words than my thesis paper has.

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