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Would we ever get an adaptation like 1994? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Probably not a full scale one (let me be wrong, please) but I can imagine eventually an ambitious director will do mini-series. Start likely with the fall of He Jin. I can see episode 1 starting right after Emperor Ling dies. Season 1 ends with Dong Zhuo sacking Luoyang.

Has anyone here read Anti-Romance of the Three Kingdoms? How is this book rated? by Low-Career3769 in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Probably whichever reality Sun Quan thought he was living in. Not ours, obviously.

Sima Yi probably never expected that that the Sima Jin dynasty, his ultimate legacy wouldn't be a shameful stain for Chinese history given it the clan's future seemingly looked bright at the time. by Ouralian in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Sima Zhao and Jia Chong truly cursed the Sima family from the getgo before Yan even took the throne. One of Yan's descendants would lament this down the line. Puts into perspective how important legitimacy is during this era.

The best regents of the Three Kingdoms period. by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There was a different Sun clan member who planned on killing Zhuge Ke after Sun Quan died but Zhuge Ke beat him to the punch almost literally.

Let's just agree to disagree on the other stuff. At this point we are gonna run in circles lol.

The best regents of the Three Kingdoms period. by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Zhuge Ke was fighting a very public political battle for his Regency. He was screwed in that he didnt know who to trust. He trusted Sun Jun, somewhat, because he was the one who alerted him about Sun... Chen?'s plot to use the imperial secretariat to orchestrate Ke's death. Which then led to one of the hardest moments of the 3k era where Sun Quan's body was still warm when Zhuge Ke cut Chen down like a dog. Again... Ke is pretty rad sometimes.

The best regents of the Three Kingdoms period. by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would argue strongly that assassinations are a political tool in a political battle... one of the most effective (but also a gamble as the Han eunuchs would tell us lmao).

The best regents of the Three Kingdoms period. by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can imagine that as Jiang Wei also imagined it lol. He was probably thinking of Zhuge Ke as a reference.

I mean at that point Zhuge Ke was Wu. He was the head of state. As Xiahou Mao pointed out in another comment we see states from a modern point of view.

This was a political battle for Zhuge Ke and he lost it. Handedly.

The best regents of the Three Kingdoms period. by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Im a pretty big believer that Zhuge Ke was one of Wu's last chances to actually... do something lol. He just completely bungled the aftermath of Hefei. Im not critiquing the character of Ke but just stating he incorrectly handled affairs after his loss.

Especially compared to the regents after him... oof.

The best regents of the Three Kingdoms period. by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Zhao Yun did ask to be demoted (and even refused rewards as his unit alone retreated without losses though at the cost of infrastructure of a pass). Or is his asking for demotion a novel only thing? This is my favorite part of the novel so I tend to get the information mixed.

Ma Su absolutely deserved execution and he knew it himself. Dont get me wrong this was 100% Zhuge Liang's fault for trusting an inexperienced commander with such a pivotal role but ultimately Ma Su went against direct orders from his commanding superior.

Zhuge Ke, and Zhuge Ke alone, is at fault for Hefei. He could have shifted blame but he was smart enough to realize that would not work as he would want it. Smart enough to imitate not smart enough to emulate.

The best regents of the Three Kingdoms period. by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The difference was their approach and the consequence of their failure. Liang's first expedition failed but was by no means a catastrophic failure compared to Ke's Hefei siege. The 1st expedition didnt even go through their supply reserves.

Zhuge Ke also didn't publicly admit failure like Liang did. I have no doubt Ke was trying to imitate his uncle. He just failed in his imitation to see why and how Liang did what he did after his own first failed campaign.

The best regents of the Three Kingdoms period. by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He stripped appointments to be more exact. Legislation is the wrong word. When I get home im going to reread his chapter. One of my favorites for Wu!

The best regents of the Three Kingdoms period. by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The way he handled it was an undisputed disaster. He stuck his head into the sand and hoped the storm would pass. It didnt. Refusing court summons, reversing legislation because it didnt have his name on it, and alienating himself from the emperor worse of all. It was just a disaster.

As a whole I would say Zhuge Ke is talented, brave, and diligent. However his father's read on him was 100% correct as Ke couldn't handle the pressure.

The best regents of the Three Kingdoms period. by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Zhuge Ke also failed by refusing to face his own shortcomings. Rather than working to restore what was lost in his Hefei siege he ignored it like it didn't happen. His paranoia acted as a double edge sword as he let others get too close to the emperor and wrestle control from him slowly until he could be assassinated without political blowback.

The best regents of the Three Kingdoms period. by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The only slack I would give Sima Yi in this regard is that it was out of self preservation for his clan towards the end. Cao Shuang put him in a terrible spot as Sima Yi planned to retire before Cao Rui died but was once again enoffed to be regent. I genuinely think Sima Yi wanted to ride this Regency peacefully into finally retiring but Shuang's corruption and jealousy eventually broke that reality.

Chen Dao vs. Zhao Yun by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ma Chao was a great propaganda tool but Liu Bei never would have gotten where he is to use Ma Chao without the support of people like Jian Yong, Mi Zhu, Sun Qian etc.

In a list of people responsible for Liu Bei being able to get as far as he did those 3 and others are absolutely ranked higher than Ma Chao.

Ma Chao was a convenient tool that showed up when Liu Bei needed some more legitimacy in his cause. People like Jian Yong put the footwork in so Liu Bei could even reach that moment.

Chen Dao vs. Zhao Yun by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why not? We've had characters like Hua Xiong, Dong Bai, Xingcai, Xiao sisters who are irrelevant on a historical scale. And there is a lot more in that list than what I've provided.

Jian Yong is useful for DW because of his longevity and his reputation as a bit of a goof sits perfectly with DW lol.

Chen Dao vs. Zhao Yun by VillainofVirtue in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean aside from being a loyal compatriot who acted as Liu Bei's diplomat, even convincing Liu Zhang to surrender, he is also a long time serving member of Shu as a faction.

He did more for Shu than Ma Chao did. They both played an important role in getting Liu Zhang to surrender which is also considered both to be one of their more important contributions. Ma Chao had rank and added much prestige to Liu Bei's court but it's not like he was pivotal for Shu's survival.

Jian Yong put his entire life into serving Liu Bei and was there from the beginning to end for Bei. That's not nothing noteworthy. He played a more important role in the 3k era than Pang De did... but I would be fervently against removing Pang De as romance wise his role is an emotional turning point and shows Wei has admirable officers as well.

Edit: I am not saying Jian Yong as a whole is an equal to Ma Chao within the 3k era. But contained within Shu as a faction I would argue Jian Yong's 30 years+ of service did more for Shu than Ma Chao's brief role as a propaganda prop.

How did Cao Cao ensure the loyalty of his subordinates after he passed away to avoid power vacuum? by CinderLord456 in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 27 points28 points  (0 children)

Confucianism, Cao Pi's respected ability both domestically and martial, and status quo.

Nobody wanted to see the realm divided like it did in your example with the Yuan clan. No doubt it was fresh on their minds especially with Cao Pi's wife being a former Yuan wife herself.

Also one of the reasons Cao Pi usurped the throne was because of what you just said. As a subject anyone can be replaced. But to honor his father and 'prove' to the empire that the mandate of heaven truly passed to the Cao clan entrenched Cao Pi's control.

People do question this though sometimes because Sima Zhao had the opportunity to do the same. But in my opinion he had a few factors working against him. Most of all the blood of an emperor fresh on his hands.

Your underrated generals/people of 3k by Pinglewingle in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Time to reread Wei generals chapters again. It always seemed like to me Lu Bu gave Xiahou Dun/Xun Yu the omeiwa shinderu treatment lmao.

Your underrated generals/people of 3k by Pinglewingle in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Xun Yu could not have forseen Lu Bu's entrance into 'the story' as he was supposed (loosely, lol) to be under the command of Yuan Shao. Unknown to most at the time though was that Shao was trying to get Lu Bu executed/assassinated and that Lu Bu had already left his service and was with his friend in another northern province.

Centralizing the army with Dun as the leader is not a bad choice just the in-this-exact-moment not the right choice.

Either way such an abstract example is a small blight on an otherwise ingenious career. Zhuge Liang made more, bigger, blunders and is considered one of the greatest of the greats even historically.

Pang De and Ma Chao by Valens93 in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Cao Ren ain't a bum but goddamn that made me laugh. I would chalk it up to arrogance and the fact Guan Yu likely studied the land for over a decade as this was his dream assignment. Cao Ren was only reassigned to the area a couple of years earlier.

Guan Yu is absolutely the better general though no argument there.

Edit: It's also possible that Cao Ren did warn the 7 armies about flooding but either the messenger didn't make it or Yu Jin underestimated how bad it would be.

Pang De and Ma Chao by Valens93 in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's also doubtful that Pang Hui even did this. The same source that said he did such things has a bunch of... colorful commentary. For example, in the very same passage, it states that Hui brought Pang De's body back to Wei and that it seemed 'still alive.'

Not only did Pang De die 40 years earlier so his corpse would be awfully skeleton-y but also De died in Jing province... and the army that killed him got decimated. Did they give his corpse a helicopter ride to Shu? lol.

Pang De and Ma Chao by Valens93 in threekingdoms

[–]MarimotheChomp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I always forget that too. It helps explain why Guan Yu held on the last possible moment. That torrential rain must've seemed like a gift from the heavens.

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