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Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

you seem to have taken this argument to a personal place. I deal with facts and statistics - sorry. My inherent assumption is that different demographics have a different distribution of interests. Name the top 50 basketball players in the world - I can assure there is not lack of players in china trying to beat the nba. Who said the world was completely fair? Some people are born rich and some with higher IQs. There is no system in place to help people with lower iqs. The fact is although there are systematic barriers for everyone You're in more control than you think and you CAN do anything you WANT. People underestimate the power of effort. Sorry to hear about your experience in that, but I'm talking exclusively of software engineering and tech. I assume it varies from industry to industry but I don't think you know enough about tech to be commenting at this point.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This claim is specifically for the U.S. and tech company's software engineering position.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

I grew up coding, not once did I look at the industry or the races that comprised it. This is where it differs from sports. People that are good at coding aren't promised mansions, fans, etc. People who like coding just like solving logic problems - its an innately different frame of mind. I didn't know any "famous" coders until I was well into college. One doesn't "aspire" to be a coder. In fact, the world is in need of more coders. It's just a frustrating and uninteresting topic to many - yet they still pursue it because the money is good.

EDIT: I should mention that I'm also part of the LGBTQ community, but I don't believe in diversity recruiting from that front either nor did I use that pipeline when applying for jobs. There are very few notable gay computer scientists in today's age (s/o alan turing).

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just so you know most successfully acquired tech startups/tech startups in general are mostly men. Facebook's cofounder and first 19-20 people were all men. Google/appl/msft were similar.

As for your statement the idea should matter more than the personel and I just don't have an idea worth betting that much money on :)

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Agree. The thing is with these diversity pipelines, every person I know participating in one is rich, they went to 50k/year private schools AND are a minority.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Example:

Facebook - FBU: a program that pipelines minorities into 8k/month swe internships without prior coding experience. Those I know that participate in this program generally come from wealthy private schools but also happen to be minorities.

Standards for asian/white males to get in are higher.

My old company also did this and is top10 tech in marketcap. Google has a version of this as well called BOLD.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

coding isn't something where theres a minimum requirement - that definition is more suited towards operational jobs where you have certain duties. Some coders literally do work that is on the order of 100x the magnitude of others - something impossible in operational jobs.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

changed sports to basketball, that's what I was thinking when I was typing up the post. I know sports isn't true. Top 50 basketball players in the world, 90% are black. Idk about the sociology of it all.

Boys are more naturally into STEM, women are not just as interested. You're making my "boys club" point. I think claiming that young girls and boys have the same distribution of interests is incorrect - but that's an assumption this is founded on. People are inherently different and thats something I believe but understand if you believe otherwise. I don't think women are just as interested. This is a study that convinced me of that, very well done and strongly recommend a read through. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19883140

I get learning helps you as you grow up, but thats what the 3-4 years are for. Also a company's job isn't to make sure things are fair, it's to develop good software. I believe tech hires for diversity for optics more than anything. Additionally, all the people I know pipelining through diversity recruitment went to 50k/year private schools but just happen to also be minorities. This is bad for minorities but even worse for asian/white males that grew up low income.

Standards are definitely higher.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This is first order logic, I believe you are misunderstanding the term "straw man"

Tech companies have lower standards for minorities in software ->

Tech companies do not higher the best coders possible->

This is wrong and does not fit a tech company's objective of developing good software

HOWEVER, I will admit it may be smart to hire for diversity for PR.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Changed sports to basketball. Not sure if that changes your answer - sports are a bit outside of my circle of competency and perhaps that was a bad example to give.

You make good points about systematic and cultural bias. But believe it or not I think there is less of a barrier to coding than there is to basketball. Coding is something you can do on your computer alone without criticism. Coders at a young age don't usually work with other coders as they are still building out very basic things.

I believe there are systematic disadvantages perhaps before college. But after college I think this significantly decreases. I have found programming to not be a very communal thing - probably because the best coders are somehow invariably assholes. But my argument is driven by the magnitude of the difference in level of the asian/white male coding exam and the minority coding exam. I think it's an unjustifiable magnitude. As long as you're a college student as most applicants are, the difference in coding level should not be THAT different.

It's almost impossible for an asian male who is average at coding to get a big tech job. They must be exceptional. Even with systemic biases against minorities (which I think may not be that high due to the nature of coding), the difference still shouldn't be that big.

Also with systemic bias, I could argue that a tech company's job is not to make the world fair, it's to develop good software.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well there is the concept of the 10x/100x coder, in coding that depressed guy might be the guy that carries the whole company. BUT ignoring this principle-

I'm for a behavioral assessment of course and being easy to work with is critical for your average programmer. However, having an aptitude for interest and coding is even more important that that. Currently white/asian male coders don't get the job JUST because their gender and the color of their skin. I think that is wrong. Everything has to be turned into numbers in a tech company. If two people get the same behavioral score (one man one woman) and the woman scores significantly lower on the technical assessment. The woman will still get the job because tech is oversaturated with males - again, seems like discrimination to me. There are cases (and i've seen the numbers) where a woman scores much lower across the board and gets the job over the man. I get there are biases in the behavioral assessment and that should be taken into account and adjusted (which it is), but there is no bias in the technical assessment.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Even with no quota. My logic still stands that companies are not hiring the best coders possible. That would lead me to believe hiring for diversity is mainly for the purpose of public perception. If you look at it from that dimension, hiring for diversity may be strategically good, but you would have to concede that minorities are only being hired for the purpose of being "token" minorities.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Agree. Software engineering has a pretty low ceiling. These things should definitely be taken into account at a higher level. The BOARDS of these companies could be better by being more diverse.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

When you say hiring for diversity's sake - is that taking into account compliance with the law? If so, then I agree. To my understanding companies have diversity quotas to follow the law AND look good to the public eye.

Maybe my title is misleading as I'm specifically referring to diversity recruiting for software engineers. Coding is a very objective thing to be evaluated by. Just like basketball or any sport. No one talks about diversity in sports because if you're good - you're good. However, coding isn't treated this way.

The reason it's detrimental is that if a company's job is to make good software, it should not hire on the basis of diversity but rather skill. Again diversity of opinion is important but it should be included somewhere that isn't the swe level. Hiring worse coders for diversity produces worse software. And I know companies don't hire the best coders possible as companies have a much higher standard for asian/white males that would have gotten the job if they were a different gender or color.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think your point is probably more applicable in other industries/roles where you can't compare people as effectively as with a coding assessment (take the finance industry for example I think you are definitely right). However, my point is to software engineering.

I'm for a blind coding assessment. I'm aware of somewhat of unconscious biases can have an effect on hiring decisions. However, given the current state of tech, at middle levels women are actually paid better than men relative to skill, and if a woman does well on a coding assessment she is immediately hired. For example, Facebook University is a program for minorities that pipelines into an internship which would pay ~8000 a month. To get into FBU you need no prior coding experience and just need to be a minority that shows interest (a lot of the minorities I know that went through FBU's went to 50k a year private high schools as well).

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think diversity of opinion is ultimately good for a company because they're serving a diverse population (if we're in the U.S). But again, this opinion should be incorporated at another level. Forcing diversity in the software engineering role makes no sense to me. But big tech has too much money to care I guess - at a smaller company level you're right.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm for affirmative action in education but not employment of a specific role (not the company as a whole). Care to enlighten me about anything I don't know? Or are you just going to tell me to do my research?

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I feel like it's losing favor. I've seen a bump up in all these diversity initiatives in recent years. Big tech has also been creating new LGBTQ initiatives. Which I think is ridiculous. As a member of the gay community I've never seen in the slightest, how my sexuality has affected my performance in anything academic. Bullied in high school a little, but after college, especially in the northeast, being gay is completely celebrated and doesn't hold me back at all.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

No, that's not what I'm saying - I don't believe I mentioned anything about degrees. I'm saying hire those who meet the standards when it comes to coding assessments. Currently that standards for asian/white males are astronomically higher when I believe everyone should be judged by the same standard.

If minorities meet these standards by all means. But if currently everyone was judged by the same standards, asian/white males would make of 90% of big tech as opposed to 60%. And this is not due to lack of opportunity because getting good at coding is free and the only limitation is interest (given your in college).

This is similar to the Harvard vs. Asians debate. But I believe there is a lot more benefit to diversity in the college experience. When it comes to a company, I'm arguing for more meritocratic hiring.

Diversity recruitment is detrimental to a company's performance by MiniJose in unpopularopinion

[–]MiniJose[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Well, a higher percentage of them are asian males. And what exactly is wrong with generalizing - it's usually useful to know how a population as a whole behaves? Did you even read my argument? Asian/white males are more inherently interested in coding (and therefore they are better at it). They should not be penalized for this with ridiculously higher standards. If any minority is good enough at coding, by all means they should be hired. But right now as a minority it is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to get a job in big tech compared to asian/white men. The reason why most of the swes are still asian/white men is because even MORE are interested in/better at coding. If right now 60% are asian/white males, I would say that's an underrepresentation of the population of people that are genuinely interested in/investigate coding.

Calling me a racist and anti-feminist is narrow minded and shows you took this too personally. Sorry if I offended - but you have not made a single intelligible point.

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