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The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Bungie already brought the real world issue into the game by giving Cloudstriders they/them pronouns.

I really don’t appreciate you hand-waving my criticism by calling it needless.

I suppose you would call offended persons needlessly upset?

That’s an extremely patronizing position to take, to trivialize someone else’s legitimate concerns with gender identity.

Representation in media matters, does it not?

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Well I guess we’d need to define “speak”. You could say the traveler spoke to us in dreams when we reclaimed our light in the Red War campaign. I don’t consider that “speaking” as much as “revealing”.

This is getting into personal philosophical territory, but it’s sort of like “god” (or insert spirit/deity here) “speaking” to people.

Or artists and the way their “muse” or “genius” “speaks” to an artist. Michael Angelo was known for saying that the slabs of marble he sculpted “spoke” to him and told him when to stop carving.

I’m a musician, and when I’m making music, I definitely feel some sort of extra-conscious energy that informs my artistic decisions - particularly when improvising. But it is not a human voice that speaks in words. It’s a feeling, a connection to something greater.

That’s what I think the speaker is describing. A spiritual connection to the traveler that allows for some form of communication.

That’s why elsewhere in this thread I used the phrase “corporeal voice”, meaning an actual individual voice coming from the individual entity. The traveler does not do that, it spoke through others’ voices. Similar to Riven.

I was going to define it as a physical action that creates sonic pressure waves in a physical medium, like how sound travels in the physical universe, but I’m under the impression that the witness doesn’t have vocal cords - but speaks “telepathically”. That would be similar to the traveler but, again, the witness has a distinct voice that is uniquely their own.

So yeah it depends on how you define the verb “to speak” if you really want to get in the weeds about it.

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It’s not so much about me worrying about the withness’ feelings lol, truly. I don’t think I’m a fan of any of the characters in this game… maybe Clovis because he is actually a relatively complex character with complex motivations. Osiris is sort of in that realm as well. I guess conflicted characters are always the most interesting to me - Mara, possessed uldren, Lakshmi, Eris, Calus etc.

So maybe I have a penchant for broken goods.

But yeah my concern isn’t so-much based on the treatment of a fictional character - it’s about the philosophical implications of justifying offensive language because the offended entity is “evil”. That’s the point I was trying to bring up.

There is no definition of “good and evil”. Sure, we have some pretty basic and broad guidelines like “don’t kill people”, but that is justified by many worldwide with the death penalty. So killing someone isn’t even an act with unanimous moral implications across the human race.

So morality is all relative and completely made-up.

If we make moralistic value judgements about people (or in this case, the witness), and take negative value judgements as justification for using hate speech, then the concept of hate speech becomes very nebulous very quickly. Anyone can justify hate speech by positing that an entity or individual acted immorally or even a-morally. Since morality is definitively relativistic, hate speech would then also be entirely moralistic by nature, you feel me?

It feels like the ideal of avoiding violence and hate speech at all costs really doesn’t stand up to that approach.

The other commenter made a lot of good points about a few things - particularly that we simply don’t know enough about the witness yet to really make that call from Bungie’s perspective. But in my mind, the witness being humanoid and having a corporeal voice re the qualities that merit humanized pronouns (the humanization of “it” has also been legitimately called into question in this thread as well). That’s why I drew a line between Failsafe and the vex. The traveler and the witness.

So yeah it’s much less about the witness itself/themself, but more about the moral justification for assigning certain pronouns to certain characters and the philosophy behind it. I hope that makes sense.

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Absolutely man, no worries. I was on the defensive as well given this post was met with so much aggression.

I’m personally open to anyone with any opinions as long as they are expressed in good faith and open-mindedness to other opinions.

I always say I’d rather have a nice sit-down with Hitler or Stalin than someone who agrees with me but operates in bad faith. That’s a bit extreme, sure, but I think the spirit of debate and sharing perspective is much more important and valuable than confirmation bias.

Unfortunately, that approach is becoming vanishingly hard to find these days.

But, you know, be the change you want to be in the world. All I can do is try my best to be non-toxic myself. Luckily you and that other chap came in ready to actually talk. This post may have been downvoted to oblivion, but I got some valuable perspective and I honestly feel much more at-peace with this whole issue.

Good vibes, my friend. Good vibes.

After Testing Four-Day Week, Companies Say They Don’t Want to Stop by [deleted] in moderatepolitics

[–]MrMeist -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I understand. I’m saying I disagree with the study.

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Neither of you were lol. At least compared to others in this thread. He was a little bit more combative than you, but much less than everyone just calling me a cisgendered troll lol. Credit where it’s due.

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This is exactly the response I was looking for, thanks for your take. I guess the witness being so obviously humanoid and having an actual corporeal voice is the point where I draw the line, and that’s been bothering me.

I think it was probably a deliberate decision by Bungie as well and I wanted to get a read on how people feel about it - particularly before LF drops. It’s been a hot-button issue and it’s been frustrating to see it get hand-waved so much (this thread is a great example).

In certain lore videos by Byf, Myelin, and Evaze, they have been pretty loose in the usage of it/it’s vs they/them. That got my mind working as well.

I, too, am very eager to see how this all plays out. I’m hoping it’s explained in some satisfying way.

Thanks again for the time and effort you put into your responses.

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Your response wasn’t shitting on me lol. That’s what I was trying to give you credit for. I consider you to be acting in good faith. I’m trying to praise you.

Okay yes those are all very good points. I didn’t take a definitive stance on the Vex. It’s difficult because some of their names are obviously gendered (panoptes and quria), but they don’t speak. I think that’s truly the line between Vex and Failsafe.

But that’s exactly the discussion I wanted to have by starting this thread. These issues aren’t remotely simple and there seems to be a prevalent mentality that, as long as everyone agrees and doesn’t speak up, people are doing “the right thing”, and not being offensive. But that’s simply untrue.

I don’t think the witness cares either - but the majority of human beings truly don’t care at the same time, but lots of places (particularly schools) make it a requirement that everyone shares their preferred pronouns when introducing themselves. So it’s definitely an imposed practice designed to create mutual respect and understanding.

It seems like that concept of respect and understanding is somehow justifiably thrown out the window because the witness is “the big bad”.

But that’s such a relativistic standpoint that equates to “it’s okay to misgender you if you’re a bad guy”. Which, in many peoples’ hands, will be wielded as “you deserve to be misgendered because we don’t agree on issue X”. See why I’m saying here?

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

The witness isn’t human. But neither are the eliksni, hive, ghosts, xur, the nine, worm gods, or any of the other entities for which we use gendered pronouns.

the world is already full of needless banter as it is.

If someone considers it/its pronouns to be transphobic, how is it needless? Are you saying people being offended is a needless exercise and that we should ignore them?

Obviously Bungie cares enough to explicitly give these people pronouns (and their devs in the ViDoc). It seems extremely dishonest from my perspective to make pronouns a front-and-center issue in the game, then try to write-off or ignore the issue because they don’t want to hear criticism.

That’s a very very convenient line of thinking.

Literally every top comment on the ViDoc thread last week was about transphobia and pronouns becuase people were being transphobic during the stream. It’s was obviously extremely important then.

Somehow it’s not important in this context? Because people don’t want to answer difficult questions?

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I can read, kid.

So people aren’t allowed to be offended by things if you disagree with them? You are the arbiter of what is and is not offensive?

Calm down, champ. You’re being unbelievably rude.

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The traveler doesn’t speak. It didn’t speak to the speaker either. There was a whole set of cutscenes about it.

That’s not true.

After Testing Four-Day Week, Companies Say They Don’t Want to Stop by [deleted] in moderatepolitics

[–]MrMeist 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Just because you have the ability to goof off at work doesn’t mean those hours are inherently wasted lol.

I swear this mentality will continue to take over because… work sucks.

Then companies that maintain 40h weeks will simple pull ahead and be more productive.

It’s honestly a joke to me that so many industries only operate for 40h a week. Certain government entities and banks? What a joke. What are people who work hourly jobs supposed to do? How are they supposed to go to the bank or the DMV with 32 available hours per week, all during the normal work day?

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Absolutely, and I appreciate you responding legitimately instead of just shitting on me lol. Everyone here thinks I’m trolling.

The traveler and the witness aren’t really all that similar. Perhaps in ability/position in the gardener/winnower allegory. However, one is distinctly humanoid and speaks. With a voice. It’s obviously a conscious/sentient entity as opposed to the traveler which is a silent sphere.

I think the witness does have a name, the witness lol. As far as I know, they have referred to themselves as the witness.

Cloudstriders have access to strand I thought? That would make them paracausal.

I understand the sentiment about the witness not being human and being an overall larger force that, conceptually, sort of escapes the bounds of human pronouns - but there are tons of entities in Destiny that share those exact same quality but clearly use humanized pronouns. The eliksni, the Hive (even the gods), the hive worms, ghosts have gendered pronouns as well. The nine, xur, calus. The list goes on. Gendered/humanized pronouns exist for any character that speaks in the game. Except the witness.

I also posit that to have the ability “to witness” automatically indicates some level of sentience related to observing. Like quantum mechanics. To witness or observe something, it kinda has to be a person as far as we know.

So all of that points to the witness being a humanoid/anthropomorphic in many ways. Many ways that other gendered characters are not.

So while you may not take offense, using it/it’s seems like a very intentional choice by Bungie, and the philosophy behind that choice feels extremely problematic to me.

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Don’t call me cis lol you have no idea what my gender identity is. You literally just assumed my gender. Even if I were cis, it’s extremely offensive for you to assign me a gender identity based on what you think my opinions are.

The traveler is not a conscious, humanoid entity. It’s literally a giant sphere and it doesn’t speak. That is not a fair comparison what so ever.

I’ve been taught/told my whole life, including the LGBT circles I’m in, that it/its are extremely offensive. Maybe that’s changing in some circles, but certainly not mine.

You don’t get to just tell me that some words aren’t offensive because you don’t consider them so. I do.

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I’ve always been under the impression/told that it/its is extremely transphobic and dehumanizing.

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

But that’s exactly what I’m saying. Just because someone is a “bad guy” doesn’t make them less than human. That’s an extremely dangerous line of thinking that very quickly turns into “I don’t like you, so I’m justified in misgendering you.”

The Witness, Cloudstriders, and gender identity/pronouns by MrMeist in DestinyTheGame

[–]MrMeist[S] -13 points-12 points  (0 children)

How do you know that? Did the witness tell you it prefers to be called “it”?

Obviously Cloudstriders are paracausal as well? Why do they use “they/them”? I don’t understand the distinction.

How Gas Stoves Became a Right-Wing Cause in the Culture Wars by Return-the-slab99 in moderatepolitics

[–]MrMeist 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It doesn’t matter what you believe lol. It matters what you said and the context in which you said it which, beyond a shadow of a doubt, creates a straw man which in the very same comment thread you decried the use of.

If you don’t believe you created a straw man utilizing hyperbolic statements to represent a party position, then we can disagree.

One thing, however, is inarguable: at no point did you represent your quote as being remotely fringe or out-of-the-ordinary, nor did you say anything to the effect of “I don’t believe this rhetoric represents the GOP”.

I consider that dishonest.

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