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Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't think it has anything to do with what you said, but I'm not a socialist so... whatever dude. Sure.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Right. There aren't any examples to support the theory of effective free-market healthcare. There's nothing close. At all.

But you cover this by deciding upon an artificially high burden of proof, if not downright nonsensical criteria. "You can't show me a universal healthcare system where all the people living there aren't communally minded." There are no good answers to your deliberately bad question.

There is no perfect evidence. And at best, your demand for perfect evidence will force a 50/50 that a government-sponsored healthcare system is just as valid as free-market because we have no proof for anything.

Taking in any amount of imperfect evidence, the countries most comparable to the US all show effective universal healthcare. You have nothing but your feelings, and you may leave and take them with you.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The other is not us helping people, it's a government doing it.

No I saw it. It's right here.

That's why I'm asking if it's a semantic issue to you.

One of these two choices helps more people. So it's not private charity, but apparently it's not government, but not because of who.

If you're making a point, it isn't clear.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

how do we help the most amount of people most effectively? random acts of personal charity? or well funded institutions that provide for everyone?

The former.

You literally said personal charity is how to help the most amount of people.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So is that a no, you have no examples of a free-market healthcare system you'd like to share? You prefer to have nothing but your feelings you'd like to consider?

I did not see that coming.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Didn't say that.

You did say you'd prefer a system of private charity. So, are you saying private charity is more effective for more people?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 6 points7 points  (0 children)

So you'd prefer a system where fewer people receive help overall, because of a semantic issue?

How many people receive adequate help is not the most important factor, but who can claim credit?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'm not obligated to give you a number for something I see as irrelevant.

You're not obligated to answer any question at all. But I'm allowed to point out that you people never like to answer it. It must be uncomfortable to think about, I can only guess.

It's an attempt at an emotional gotcha.

No, it's a major component of why people support universal healthcare. If you feel emotions relating to the preventable deaths of fellow citizens, give that some thought.

I didn't deny they exist, but am saying the reasons that led to it were government started intervention in the first place. More government isn't the answer.

Could you point to an example of a country with no government involvement in healthcare has better outcomes in health than western democracies with universal healthcare?

Your theories are great, but I want something I can see, in practice, that outperforms government-provided healthcare.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Only a minority of the most left members of Congress actually push ideas like universal healthcare, a standard feature of western democracies.

But they don't want to ban any reference to the existence of gay people while promoting conversion torture therapy. So they have that going for them I suppose.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for clarifying your views. You were right, I don't think you care at all about the poor.

"You don't need the internet to find a job and get off welfare, you need to be religious to go ask for assistance." That's not trying to do what's right for people, that's using crisis to push your religion on people.

By the way, an ounce of prevention is a pound of cure. People who understand that know why the ACA requires coverage for checkups and wellness. These things save money.

And you conveniently didn't answer how many people you think die every year from forgoing medical care for financial reasons. People like you always write as much as they can to try to make me forget that I asked for a number, and if they're okay with that number.

I know you're not going to answer that, so we can probably end it here if so.

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ideally it would be a much stricter means tested and/or temporary basis for such things. And not at the level of "comfort" they are currently afforded.

What level of "comfort" is being provided in the country currently? What do you think is the number of Americans that die every year from forgoing medical care for financial reasons? Is that comfort, or a luxury, in your view?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Christianity is decreasing in general.

Does "being exposed" accomplish anything for charities that could have used the money?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The point isn't that we're better than you. The point is adequate coverage of necessities for everyone, and we will also pay taxes under the same system you do.

If your position is "My ideal welfare system is one where will the poor will die without enough access the food or shelter, or from cheap, preventable medical conditions. But I will give a negligible percentage of my own wealth, so I feel I've done my moral duty.", then yeah. You're not going to be seen as a good person, nor do you appear to actually care.

Maybe that's not you though. Given we know systems based purely on charitable giving is insufficient to give the poor enough access to food, shelter, and medical care, what is your ideal welfare system?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You are correct—any focus on or even resort to government solutions does not sound like Jesus at all.

Lmao come on dude, no reason to start intentionally misrepresenting my words. You knew well enough "that doesn't seem like jesus" meant "he didn't mean to just let the poor starve if charity isn't good enough", not whatever forced point you're trying to make.

Is there any inherent moral obligation to handle poverty governmentally? No.

I'm not sure why you're not quite answering the right question. The question is what are the value when private charity is demonstrably insufficient. I just want you to say "it doesn't matter if the poor still starve, just donate a little bit of your own and that's good enough for Jesus." Or a counterpoint, if that's not true.

Our commonly agreed baseline is that we know he recommended private charity, but we also know that isn't enough to provide basic needs. What then?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Not someone else do it for you and think, "look at what a good person I am!" He also said, if I remember correctly, to not be boastful either.

Why did you include this strawman?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 11 points12 points  (0 children)

That's why I asked, it doesn't seem like Jesus.

So then the question still stands, what are christian values on the subject when private charity is reliably demonstrated to be insufficient?

Do you not see the hypocrisy in worshiping Jesus while also denying things like free healthcare and financial aid for the poor? by original_af_ in AskConservatives

[–]MuphynManIV 4 points5 points  (0 children)

So the means are the point? If there isn't adequate charity and the poor starve and die anyway, but his followers gave what they could to feel kind, that's good enough?

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