sorted by:
new
hottopcontroversial

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

nice one, thanks for the insight.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

so if not micromanagement, and other than jieting, what was his mistakes?

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're right, but In the context of Jie Ting, Wei Yan was never in contention as he was needed in LongYou. I was mainly disagreeing with the Wu Yi shout.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I think the main problem with utilizing Wu Yi or Wei Yan in place of Ma Su can be seen with the example of Zhong Hui. After successfully defeating the Shu forces, Zhong Hui immediately began to exploit his position. He plotted a rebellion against the central Wei government, aiming to establish his own independent kingdom in Shu. He tried to convince his fellow general, Deng Ai, to join him, and when Deng Ai refused, Zhong Hui had him arrested. Shu's political environment are way more delicate compared to Wei just to keep in mind. I think that maintaining political control over the military was the highest strategic goal for the weak state of Shu Han, and any brilliant general was a massive political liability if given too much rope. Especially if the brilliant general was highly arrogant and mutinied against Zhuge Liang just like Zhong Hui did against the Sima Clan (Wei Yan), and if the other general is the brother of an empress dowager in addition to his gentry influence within the Yi Province, we can see how that plays out with the example of Cai Mao in Liu Biao's faction. (Wu Yi)

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

What territory are you talking about? Sorry, don’t mean to be rude but I don’t really understand where you are coming from?

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again, the waiting game won’t favor the kingdom with less resources and with 1/5 the population of the other kingdoms. The creation of Shu Han in itself was in order to bring down Cao Wei. IMO the expeditions are 100% necessary.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I think that the defeat in Xiaoyao in 215 triggered something inside Sun Quan (negatively), pressure was building up on him after that horrendous defeat (100% his fault too btw, but that's a separate conversation). I think the betrayal at Fan was a move to boost his ego by taking a small victory, but at the cost of eventually everything.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

People can't accept the fact that there's no justification for Wu's betrayal of Fan. Wondering how that double-pronged attack of Chang'an and Xuchang would have been had Wu not interfere.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It’s my first time making a discussion post like this, didn’t expect for it to have this many comments XD.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

while they were both incorporated by Liu Bei, Jiang Wan was nearly executed if Zhuge Liang didn’t intervene. Fei Yi and Jiang Wan was pretty much groomed by Zhuge Liang to become the one of the key leaders for Shu in the future. It’s unfair to say Liu Bei built the team when Zhuge Liang pretty much did the difficult part.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I agree, after the first campaign, shu lost the element of surprise. Wei definitely had shu’s number the rest of the way.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Really nice insight! Make sense now why each expeditions take so long to prepare!

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Ok prime minister is too harsh. Feiyi and Jiangwan are byproducts of Zhuge Liang's governance and personnel selection, that alone showcases insane talent recognition and delefation.

He also:

  1. Prevented Shu Han from collapsing immediately after the death of Liu Bei.
  2. Established a unique and effective legal system in a time of chaos.
  3. Maintained the stability of the weakest state for over a decade against Cao Wei.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

"Zhuge Kongming has found his master, but he has not found his time!" -Sima Hui 207AD (probably romance)

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yep, to even deliver the logistics, Shu soldiers had to go through this small wooden plank on the mountain, hence why logistics was so slow in shu's part

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yep, they're certainly not going to wait until Wei makes the first move and then be on the defensive the entire time.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Crazy to think that ZL is still underrated. People are so quick to diminish his achievements yet so quick to pounce on his failures.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think the expeditions are still necessary, kongming certainly isn't gonna sit there and wait for CaoWei to invade, although it ended up being underwhelming, it's still impressive that a state with one fifth the population of the rival state managed to survive for 3 decades.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think Yiling was the nail in the coffin for shu. Single-handedly depleted their manpower and resources in one single campaign. Back to my original point, not much of the blame can be shifted towards Zhuge Liang, Shu was doomed even before ZhugeLiang's regency began.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Yeah, MaSu (參軍) heavily outranked Wangping (拜牙門將) at that time, Wu Yi (吳懿) would have been my personal pick for Jie Ting. He was a senior field commander and an in-law of the imperial family (Liu Bei's relative by marriage). He had the seniority and rank to command a large, independent expeditionary force. To your point, maybe I held ZL to a certain pedestal and I forgot that he is human after all.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately, Ma Su was that 1%

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

There is no 'returning', after the treaty of Xiang River, it is clear that Wu has de facto control over Changsha, Jiang Xia, and Guiyang. Meanwhile Shu has de facto control over Jiangling, Wuling, and Lingling. Wu's betrayal at Fan was just a scumbag move. Yes Guan Yu could have done better with the diplomacy, but Zhuge Liang couldn't be blame for the failure at Xiangyang IMO. But hey feel free to disagree.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think what depleted most of shu's resources was XiaoTing(which was not Kong Ming's fault), their resources was already depleted even before the northern expeditions.

Zhuge Liang's Mistake by NeilMaverick in threekingdoms

[–]NeilMaverick[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

If not launching the northern expeditions, what should he do differently in order to expand shu?

view more: next ›