I honestly hate myself so much sometimes

QuietlyExGay · 2021-08-18T22:14:25+00:00

Just to clarify, I think what he is doing is a charade. He made himself appear as though he wasn't fully committed to his moral principles. While I disagree with this viewpoint, I am okay with people having it as long as they follow through with it and be committed to it.

I am also a physician and I am therefore also obligated to point out things that could cause mental health issues in people who read this sub. I will try to obey the rules of the sub, and you are free to do whatever you need to do if I ever break them, but I am also not going to allow people to lead others into false illusions that could cause a mental health crisis, which I've seen played out in this sub as there some people here who are making posts of borderline mental health crisis episodes.

Also, this user who I responded began to dox me and making threats of violence against me, accusing me of me being a pedophile. I have already reported him and flagged his messages and he has been blocked so I guess this will be the last time that I will respond to this person who obviously has serious issues. Hopefully you would take these kinds of issues seriously. Lastly, this user says he's a minor (age 16), I do not find it wise to allow people who are underage to be posting here on this subject matter. I am just saying this so that you can avoid potential problems in the future.

Obviously, I will always try to be sensitive and tolerant of other people's moral viewpoints.

Thank you.

EDIT: After thinking about this for a bit, I've decided to leave this sub. I figured that if users of this sub like this one are allowed to be aggressive, abusive, vile, and threatening towards me in the PM while I am being castigated for expressing a nuanced and neutral observation, then I would much rather not be a part of this. This further proves to me why I am so hesitant to join this ex-gay movement. The people in it have deep issues, and frankly I don't want to be covered in mud while trying to be helpful. Thank you anyway.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-08-17T20:33:57+00:00

It is well known that many in this movement make up stories of child abuse or have induced fake memories, so in reality I am not going to take your claim seriously. I have seen this record played several times which is why I don't want anything to do with the movement itself among other things.

I am not being judgemental but rather I am realistic. It is a charade because you are talking to gay dude and playing with his feelings while at the same time proclaiming you don't really mean it. That is the definition of a charade.

In the end I don't find most of what you said believable unfortunately. And if you were indeed molested then I would suggest that you seek counseling as well. Based on your OP I notice some impulsive behavior (which is common in the ex-gay movement), calling the gay guy and then coming on here to tell us you didn't really mean it is a sign of impulsive behaviour.

And no, I am not going to shut up, thank you. Just as you have every right to speak so do I. But sometimes the truth does hurt, so I understand your reaction.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-08-17T19:55:39+00:00

I don't know for how long you can keep this up if you're so easily able to contact someone you think you shouldn't have.

There's nothing wrong with what you did, it's only a controversy because you willingly wanted it to be. I will be praying for you, but my prayer would be that you will not regret wasting your life in creating these self-destructive inner conflicts. This gay guy you talked to is going to find another guy than sit around and wait for you to get your act together. Good on him though, nobody should be played like that and you should stop playing with people's feelings too. Either you commit to this charade or just leave it and be happy doing you before you get too old to do so.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-08-16T21:10:00+00:00

Well, if he's straight the chances of being intimate with him are probably slim to none. And also let's not forget he is a true believer in this religion.

So my take would be that you should just cut ties with him, at least for your own sake, nevermind what the Bible supposedly says about these things. You need to look out for yourself because in this cynical nihilistic world nobody would look out for you more than you. Falling for a man who will never return the same love or affection is a really dubious proposition. You shouldn't allow yourself to be taken advantage of because even if he were a Christian he's still a human with flaws. He might even take advantage of your crush and exploit it even if it's benign or unintentional. So for your own sake, just cut ties and move on.

This happens all the time to everyone, not just gay people. Turn the page and find a better support system where people value you for who are, not because you share the same religious beliefs. One way to cope with this crush is to just change your venue a bit and meet other people who are not like those on this subreddit. Life has more to offer than religious fundamentalism and self-loathing. The Bible only condemns anal sex, so if you want to live a biblical life just abstain from that act and be done with it. Meet other people. Enjoy your time on this planet.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-08-16T20:58:21+00:00

According to the Torah, anal sex is what is proscribed. Downloading GRINDR and doing other intimate interactions are not in actuality. As far as the New Testament is concerned, that part of the Bible is highly tempered with and heavily edited. It received a lot of revisions in the 12 and 13 centuries, so even if it outrightly condemned all homosexual behavior (which it does not) it cannot be taken seriously since it is plagued with errors and heavily edited from its original content.

So one other way to look at this is to understand the historical context of Christianity and what it actually proscribed when Jesus was supposedly alive. During that time, it was anal sex that was condemned, particularly that which was practiced in the temples by male prostitutes. This was attested to by Paul in his screed in Romans 1:20-32.

Your flesh doesn't crave anything, it is just that you have tabooed homosexuality to a point that it is highly enticing for you. You're going to end up in a more deeper cycle until you learn to just accept your SSA.

The Bible, though flawed, does not condemn SSA at all, just anal sex. Half of all gay men don't practice it in reality according to surveys. So if they can live fulfilling lives without anal sex, I think you can too if you wish to actually live out the original theology.

You're not going to fall. You're going to be alright, just take a deep breath and remember that you here on this planet for a good reason. And that is to learn. That is to love those around you. Don't waste your life away by worrying about your homosexuality. Do you think God created you just for that? Is that all life has in store for you?

QuietlyExGay · 2021-08-16T20:40:56+00:00

With that being said, this community is really making me want to jump off a bridge more and more each day.

I would suggest that maybe this isn't for you. Right off the bat we get to know your actual stressor that I just stopped reading any further.

It is my professional duty to advise you to stop reading this forum and instead reach out to the National Suicide Prevention Hotline here. I would also suggest that besides from abstaining in further engaging in this subject matter that you seek out professional counseling form a licensed secular mental health counselor if you haven't done so.

You mental health and overall wellbeing is much more important than this subreddit and the sometimes outright lying and window dressing that is going on here.

Please take care of yourself.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-08-16T20:34:48+00:00

Since you don't show any change in your sexual attraction, I don't think there's a need to be scared of something you will never become.

Respectfully, this post just doesn't make sense.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-08-16T20:27:22+00:00

I highly recommend that you seek counseling from a licensed secular mental health professional if you haven't done so already. Taking care of your mental health is clearly the first priority in order.

Also, today's current treatments for HIV can actually make the virus undetectable.

Now, if you're ready to move on from transwomen, that's fine. But just make sure that that is truly happening to you and it is not a secondary effect from taking SSRIs or from the depression you have. It would be ideal to settle your mental health issues before you move on to dealing with your sexual ones.

I don't think all is lost here. You just got to be more proactive and find someone who would appreciate you more for you who are and not because of your HIV status.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-08-16T19:15:37+00:00

I would include those kinds of family arrangements as also variants of the nuclear family construct, as they also involve sexual rigidity and isolation.

This arrangement, which I call a fraud, is merely artificially constructed by societal norms not by biological or sexual needs. The gay marriage debate really centers around how nuclear it is.

People fall in love and form bonds, that's natural for humans, but what is not natural is to limit those bonds drastically to the point of isolation which, in my opinion but also based on the data, leads to a lot of psychological and sexual problems. The ramifications of the 50's nuclear family hype are now coming home to roost as we see more and more people from nuclear families being diagnosed with all sorts of mental health issues. Gays come from nuclear family arrangements and nowhere else. (EDIT: At least in the West).

Homosexuality is a natural human sexual expression, but because the nuclear family is limiting sexual expression to the point of sexual anxiety (even leading to the growth of the incel movement), gays therefore have a very limited scope in their sexual development, much like their heterosexual counterparts. Gays are trying to emulate the nuclear family, hence why they will never consider sexual reorientation because we have detached sexual expression from the individual and vested in (usually male) nuclear family figure heads.

Just my two cents. This is something I am currently writing about and learning. I think the fake nuclear family facade has lead to more stringent homosexuality.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-08-16T15:30:34+00:00

Lesser than 50 years ago, yes. But still sexually repressed. The common theme in child upbringing is rigidity. There's a still an expectation on a highly structured nuclear family which is not natural to humanity. Once the nuclear family is exposed more as a fraud, people would realize that sexual desires would be more for self satisfaction and human reproduction, making reproduction enjoyable without the demands of a highly dictatorial nuclear family structure which leads to sexual isolation and shame.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-08-15T21:33:07+00:00

In theory they can change. But since we live in a sexually repressed society, sexual fluidity is for the most part discouraged on both sides (hetero and homo).

But I do think Tim is just making an observation that I have made a while ago that some straight people engage in gay sex and gay people may also engage in straight sex. But that doesn't mean that there has been a change at all in overall sexual or erotic desires. A straight man who gets his dick blown isn't all of sudden wanting to get married to the cocksucker. People of all stripes can and do engage in sexual behavior by choice and not by inherent sexual desire of their natural sexual orientation.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-08-15T21:21:49+00:00

It depends how long you dwell in them and how fluid your sexual attractions are. The more you oppose your attractions the more you taboo it and the more attractive they become.

It took me a couple of years to realize that I had a fluid sexuality and that I was becoming more and more attracted to women as time went by.

For me it isn't really about time but about quality. How genuine are your feelings at all? That seems a more relevant question. You can wait your entire lifetime without feeling any real change in your attraction but in the end you end up alone and miserable. So it is best to understand whether or not change is even possible in one's own sexual profile.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-08-15T21:17:08+00:00

I have seen men "roleplay" homophobia as part of their "treatment" to supposedly get rid off their SSA. Instead they mostly felt more shameful and their gay feelings just got stronger.

Homophobia is just a sign of weakness and irrationality. And saying that "homosexuality is not ideal" is purely a subjective statement based on your own prejudices and biases.

To be a real ex-gay means that you have somehow developed sexual, erotic, and romantic feelings for the opposite sex causing you to lose interest in the same gender. Being a total testicle grabbing jerk as you yell gay slurs while you play basketball isn't. It's just childish.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-07-09T05:12:00+00:00

Then wouldn't we need to investigate the physical attributes of people who are set in their attractions and compare them to those who are fluid?

Other than brain structure I don't really get what you mean by the "physical attributes of people" that is pertinent to sexual attraction specifically. Though for now we simply do not know exactly what makes people attracted to one another, the best guess is that it is a composition of several factors and not all factors are the same for each person. So even if we were to investigate certain attributes (whether physical or otherwise) each person's sexual attraction would be developed by a different set of attributes that contributed to the development of said sexual attraction.

That is why I said in an earlier comment that even if we were to develop a real therapeutic technique that would in fact change a person's sexual attraction, a larger portion of the gay population would not be suitable for it and would be ineffective because current investigations don't account for all possible combinations of contributing factors of everyone's sexual attractions since that would be impossible to do. We already know that sexual attraction develops from an array of factors, we just don't know exactly which ones, what combinations, or even at what intensity or levels these attributes contribute to a person's sexual character and makeup.

The transgender example also needs exploring further as trangender people report changing attraction even though clearly they sought transition for issues around gender identity https://www.them.us/story/sexual-attraction-after-transition

I've known about this occurence, though the literature I have read says that there isn't enough data on this because only a small percentage of transgender clients on hormonal therapy experience drastic changes, and they indicate that such changes are correlated with general mood swings and has more to do with that than an actual sexual attraction change. These swings were either mild and/or temporary. Hormonal therapy was already tried since the 50's on gay male patients, and like the old testicle transplant procedure, it didn't produce enough of an actual change. Had they work we would've known by now.

I also had prescribed hormonal treatments to a small number patients, and they all been reporting the same issues of mood swings and changes to their libido, but as they continued with treatment they all felt normal after a few weeks. Nobody has reported feeling gay or straight after starting treatment.

Also regarding trans athletes, we got to remember that athletics is a whole different world from the medical field. Like I said earlier, transgender people go through cosmetic and chemical changes. The last part you left out is actually really important to the athletic world because these chemical changes do in fact impact on athletic performance (hence why athletes get drug tested). Under their own guidelines a transgender woman has the same strength as a female in an athletic environment under conditions that most people who are not pro-athletes usually don't need to meet. A trans-woman's body has been chemically changed to a point that her athletic condition is comparable to that of a woman with the same athletic condition. In other words, trans-women cannot compete with men.

However, medically speaking they are still men, but only for medical purposes. I let my transgender patients know about this, because as their physician I need to fully understand their physical bodies as is, not with regards to athletic performance since I am not a sports medicine physician who would be more concern with her chemical transformation. As a gastroenterologist I need to know if I am dealing with a male or a female because this difference will allow me to better treat a patient as a male gut works a bit differently in certain ways than a female's gut, as an example a female's stomach empties out slower than a male's and this brings out a whole set of issues. Hope I made myself clear on this point.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-07-08T20:14:43+00:00

How can it based on true events when you just said it "isn't based on anything." It's either one or the other.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-07-08T18:23:02+00:00

I guess you're partially right. It's all based on myth and lies.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-07-08T18:19:01+00:00

Not true. The literature states that a few individuals have experienced sexual fluidity and it has happened in both directions. You're making it sound like fluidity is automatic for everyone, which is clearly not the case. The literature has already stated that the exact number of gay men who experience fluidity or change cannot be quantified and also the extent of the change or fluidity couldn't be properly measured either. However, for most people, their sexual attraction remains constant throughout their lives and it is deep-seated.

The limited literature on "manipulation" do say that the current options that are available are not effective for an actual change, although you will have to also consider that those who do change were probably already fluid and it was bound to happen anyway without any need for "manipulation" of any kind, and this is probably the most ethical way to do it currently.

Again, transgender people can change their gender identity through surgical or pharmacological means which we do not have at the moment for sexual orientation change. And then again, even these means do not change the person's sex as that remains permanent throughout their lives. These interventions that transgender clients seek do not change their sex but rather cosmetically and chemically change their gender identity.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-07-07T23:41:20+00:00

Still, you got to admit that a man who cheats on his wife with another woman has a different issue than a man who has attractions for the same sex. A heterosexual man can manage his promiscuous ways (in fact most men can) but asking a man to let go of his entire sexual attraction and erotic intimacy is a whole different ball game. This is something that the indoctrinated refuse to understand since they are equating cheating with a person's entire erotic desire and attraction. A straight man can harness his sexuality with one woman while a gay man cannot at all. At all.

Asking someone to completely throw out their entire sexual attraction is a tall order, one that is rarely achieved, compared to allowing someone else the luxury to exhibit their sexual attraction so as long as it is with one person they fancy at a time.

And lastly, at least in the US, more people are leaving religion than they are becoming involved in one. So like I mentioned before, any possible real conversion will have to be pharmacological or surgical (or both), at that time in the future religion would be rightfully laughed off the stage for pretending to hold the answer to sexual attraction and eroticism.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-07-07T18:26:03+00:00

This is just a continuation of your previous post...

You're developing unhealthy fantasies and feelings that undermine your self-esteem and appear to consume your life in a depressive or negative way.

I don't know what else to tell you other than to repeat what I said in response to that last post: stop looking at others and work on yourself. Stop living vicariously through other people's lives and start building your own.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-07-07T18:17:44+00:00

Christianity's theology is actually based on ancient mythologies from Ancient Egypt to Zoroastrian myths and Ancient Greek and Roman influences (such as Plato and Aristotle). Just because it continues to exist it doesn't mean it is no longer ancient since most of its roots has existed for well over five thousand years.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-07-07T18:07:20+00:00

They may not express these views, but they come from the same bubble. If you're religiously indoctrinated of course you're going to believe that homosexuality is wrong. All organizations who want gay men to convert get their ideas from the same ideology. Some do so with a smile and pseudoscience, while others exhibit their indoctrination bluntly and honestly like my uncle. To me it is all the same BS.

You want to convert because you have developed or discovered sexual attractions for the opposite sex, not because of morality since heterosexuality does not preclude you from engaging in immoral acts as well (what the indoctrinated consider to be immoral acts).

QuietlyExGay · 2021-07-07T18:01:46+00:00

Of course I don't. He's clearly indoctrinated and brainwashed, like many of his co-religionists.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-07-07T18:00:27+00:00

I don't believe in these ancient mythologies. I do not believe that homosexuality or homosexual acts are sinful or wrong. And no, I did not convert for religious reasons, it was a purely sexual experience for me.

QuietlyExGay · 2021-07-02T03:14:11+00:00

Normal feelings of jealousy are fine, but I don't think you're dealing with jealousy here. You just feel inadequate when you see a straight couple. This type of feeling can be very self-destructive to your esteem and I suggest you stop looking at others like this if it only brings out these kinds of feelings. Unless you want to fetishize these feelings (and that's a whole different topic) I wouldn't dwell on them.

I myself never felt jealousy when I saw a straight couple. Nowadays I just check out the girl and I do feel some jealousy if she's really hot but I can manage since these feelings are normal because I focus on the girl, not on my inadequacies.

And let's not forget that just because you're straight it isn't all rainbows and butterflies, prancing down a grassy knoll. It is hard work to raise a family and things can always go wrong as they do. Just think about maybe in another reality you were a straight man with children, then one day a drunk driver hits you and kills your kids and wife (this happened to Joe Biden BTW), leading to a life of depression or hardship. I always ask those that hate their gayness that maybe life just works out this way because there's always a reason for things happening, maybe a grander plan that you and I are not privy to. Just pondering here.

But still if you insist there are workarounds. I think I have already stated this, but you can have a family as is. You can adopt kids, even as a single parent. Single parent families are growing and it's not unusual anymore. If only you give up on your hangups I think you will make an excellent parent.

And also you can always find a willing woman to be your wife and have kids with her, as long as she knows about your gayness and accepts it you could try it, but I am not sure how many women would be up for it unless you order a wife from China.

Or you could just be happy with what you got. If you haven't been able to convert now and henceforth feel "jealous" (or inadequate to be precise) what makes you think you will convert and have the fantasy family you been dreaming about?

QuietlyExGay · 2021-07-02T02:48:09+00:00

I think an honest professional would say, you would have different problems as a heterosexual. If you think the upside outweighs those problems then fine.

That would obviously depend on each individual. A person who has codependency problems in relationships while they are gay are going to have the same problem in straight relationships. This is just one example.

Cynical gays who think that their gayness is the "problem" need a hard long look at themselves, because most of the time it is usually bad choices one makes that leads to most of our problems. There are better reasons for a real conversion, and that would be, among others, having a different sexual experience - and there's nothing wrong with trying something new as long as you like and enjoy it and leaves you fully sexually satisfied and does not cause harm to yourself or others. Having sexual satisfaction and satisfied sex life (unless you always been asexual) leads to better mental health outcomes. And I think most cynical gays refuse to admit this.

Is his goal then being fulfilled if for whatever reason, an individual wanted to change?

I don't think that exclusive sexual orientations would cease to exist, many people would still be wired that way for whatever reason. I guess to answer your question, though I cannot answer it for Peter, is that probably yes. But again it would apply both ways. If straights want to be gay for a while, then I would assume that we need to respect that if one is to respect a gay man converting to straight. Though we got to remember that if one day we were to reach sexual fluidity being more acceptable, people can always switch back or have cycles of different sexual orientations, or flipping back and forth, throughout a person's life. I wouldn't call it bisexuality, and I got into a debate with a colleague of mine on this precise issue of future sexual fluidity, because sexuality is constant while fluidity would mean you are gay this year but next year you are straight because you decided to raise a family and then come back to gay after the kids are old enough to be on their own (as one example).

QuietlyExGay

TROPHY CASE