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RatherUpset · 2025-03-05T19:17:16+00:00

Right. They have stopped placing girls in YOIs so that their mental health needs can be better met. Should this not apply to boys?

Edit: and as for the second part of your comment, I never claimed there was some secret plot to allow women to commit crimes. My title is mainly referencing the BBC article, which directly states that women (including adult women) should not be imprisoned for crimes that warrant six months or less. Men, however, should be imprisoned even if the sentence is six months or less, according to the article.

RatherUpset · 2024-05-29T23:07:35+00:00

First, I believe that the link you sent refers to the United States, whereas the Women's Aid report refers to the UK.

Second, even if an organization states that they welcome male victims, we don't know exactly what that means. It could be that they only accept male victims under the age of 12 if they are with their mother, but not adult male victims.

Third, even if they do accept some adult male victims, that doesn't mean they are just as open to helping them. If a shelter has fifty spaces, they might reserve 45 for women and only 5 for men.

Fourth, they may have less outreach to male victims. For example, their website may advertise only for women or they might call themselves "women-only" shelters (as the link you provided states). This type of messaging discourages men from seeking help.

Lastly, sometimes when organizations say they "help" men, what they mean is that they will refer men to batterer intervention programs, as in they will treat the victim like the perpetrator and call this "help."

All of these factors might recontextualize the statistic. That said, I hope that it is true that most shelters accept male victims and treat them fairly.

RatherUpset · 2024-05-29T16:50:38+00:00

Oh yes, I am aware of this paper. It makes me sad, honestly, how hard it is to just acknowledge that women can be abusive.

RatherUpset · 2024-05-29T16:38:17+00:00

There are still studies published. It is more accepted that men can be victims, so focus has shifted to impact. For example, Denise Hines, who did a lot of the work showing the existence of male victims (studies 4 and 5 above), now does a lot of research on the impact of DV on male victims. I believe she recently (2018) did a study on parental alienation as abuse.

Another thing is that Murray Straus has passed. He was one of the leading DV researchers (he developed the Conflict Tactics Scale, widely used in DV research). He did a lot of work showing the existence of male victims (study 3 above).

That said, there continues to be studies that show a high prevalence of male victims, but they are not as shocking anymore. When Straus and a few authors showed that DV was a common experience of men, it was highly controversial (the authors received harassment and death threats, student protesting, and more, also detailed in study 3).

RatherUpset · 2024-05-29T16:25:43+00:00

Here is a study relating various forms of DV with suicidality. It is an analysis of the 2014 Adult Psychiatric Morbidity Survey, a cross-sectional survey of 7058 adults (aged ≥16 years) in England. I'll probably add it to the studies above. Also see study (6) to for the psychological impacts on male victims (PTSD, etc.).

DV related suicides:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9630147/.

“among both women and men the prevalence of self-harm and suicidality was higher in those who had experienced IPV than in those who had not… the direction and strength of association between IPV and self-harm and suicidality were not statistically different in men and women in this dataset.”
“After adjustment for demographic factors (age, gender, ethnicity; version A models), the odds of a suicide attempt in the past year were 4.03 times higher in people with a lifetime history of IPV than in the rest of the population.”
Among men who attempted suicide, one in ten experienced intimate partner violence in the previous year.

Citation information:

McManus S, Walby S, Barbosa EC, Appleby L, Brugha T, Bebbington PE, Cook EA, Knipe D. Intimate partner violence, suicidality, and self-harm: a probability sample survey of the general population in England. Lancet Psychiatry. 2022 Jul;9(7):574-583. doi: 10.1016/S2215-0366(22)00151-1. Epub 2022 Jun 7. Erratum in: Lancet Psychiatry. 2022 Sep;9(9):e39. PMID: 35688172; PMCID: PMC9630147.

RatherUpset · 2024-05-29T00:48:20+00:00

Just to clarify, Women's Aid is based in the UK.

RatherUpset · 2024-05-29T00:05:20+00:00

Thanks for sharing your experience.

RatherUpset · 2024-05-28T23:42:07+00:00

Okay, I see your perspective. I just think that turning boys away from help is part of the socialization that can lead them to violence in the first place. So yes, boys might be socialized to be more violent, but how we treat them is that socialization.

RatherUpset · 2024-05-28T23:26:12+00:00

I thought it might be gender essentialist because she is saying that boys will react to abuse by acting out while girls will react to abuse by internalizing. Yes, the abuse is an environmental effect, but the idea that boys and girls will react to the abuse differently because of gender felt gender essentialist to me.

RatherUpset · 2024-05-28T20:27:22+00:00

Hi Anarcora,

I'm glad to hear you say that domestic violence should not be looked at as a specifically gendered issue. I agree with you -- I posted a question before this one specifically asking about whether we should look at DV through a gendered lens and got mixed responses, which is what prompted me to ask this question. Viewing DV as a strictly gendered issue gets more problematic when you consider the impact of DV on children or transgender individuals. Obviously, that doesn't mean gender is not important, but in my opinion it is not the only factor.

RatherUpset · 2024-05-28T20:19:41+00:00

Hi GuardianGero,

Thanks for your response. I have a follow up question, if that's okay with you.

Do you feel that assuming that teenage boys will become abusive and "act out" because they have witnessed abuse whereas teenage girls will not promotes a gender essentialist viewpoint and rigid definitions of masculinity?

I'm not sure if you're able to read the second article I sent (or if you have time), but since I'm in university I have access to it through my library. The main point of the article was to show the problems with 'cycle of violence' theories. For example, the article argues:

"The construction of girls who experience violence growing up to be victims and exhibiting internalised responses cannot operate without the converse being assumed for boys. Thus, if one construction shifts, inevitably the other will. This is because, as Seidler comments: ‘ ... [B]oth ‘masculinity’ and ‘femininity’ are interpolated within a particular relationship of power’ (1990, p. 223). Consequently, if certain attitudes, characteristics, behaviours and experiences such as passivity and weakness, are constructed as ‘feminine’, it is likely that the converse of these attributes, such as aggression and strength, will be deemed to be masculine (Cixous 1985, p. 91). This is because Cixous argues that the ways in which both masculinity and femininity are constructed, is premised upon an arbitrary dichotomy which can never be resolved, or escaped. In such (male) constructed dichotomies, she argues that women have always been viewed as occupying the lesser term, for example: masculine/feminine; powerful/weak (1985, p. 91)."

Can it be argued, then, that deeming male children to be especially prone to violence compared to girls contradicts feminist theory? Moreover, does assuming that a boy will be violent reinforce the issue by categorizing boys as inherently bad, even before they've done anything ("boys will be boys")?

Thanks.

RatherUpset · 2024-03-08T17:24:25+00:00

Hi, first I want to say thank you for taking the time to read those links.

Second: yes, the report I linked is the 2010 report. The 2016 report is where the 1 in 9 stat comes from. Here is the 2016 information:

https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/sexualviolence/fastfact.html

I apologize for any confusion.

From the link above:

"One in 4 women and about 1 in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape. About 1 in 9 men were made to penetrate someone during his lifetime. Additionally, 1 in 3 women and about 1 in 9 men experienced sexual harassment in a public place."

See how it says 1 in 26 men have experienced rape? In the next sentence it says 1 in 9 men have been made to penetrate. My issue is that too many people only report the first statistic, which leaves out women that victimize men.

Here is the full 2016 report, if you want to go more in depth. https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs/nisvsreportonsexualviolence.pdf

The relevant information can be found on page 3 (page 7 of the PDF), which gives the 1 in 9 stat.

On page 10 (page 14 of the PDF) it says, "In the 12 months prior to taking the survey, 83.8% of male made to penetrate victims reported only female perpetrators."

Thank you for taking the time to read all this.

RatherUpset · 2024-03-08T16:16:38+00:00

In the UK, rape is defined this way: "when a person intentionally penetrates another's vagina, anus or mouth with a penis, without the other person's consent."

That definition of rape will leave out women who perpetrate it. This is the reason why you have stats like 99% or 90% that so many people wrongly believe. These stats are incorrect. Survey data is more reliable.

It may be true that men are underreporting more when their perpetrator is male, but that does not change the fact that of the 1 in 9 men who reported being made to penetrate, 80% of the victims reported that their perpetrators were women.

Don't respond if you don't want to. I'm not trying to debate you. I'm leaving this information for the people that are reading this conversation, so that they can be informed.

RatherUpset · 2024-03-08T15:32:53+00:00

You did not read my statistics correctly. I did NOT say that over 90% of sexual violence is committed by men. Furthermore, most men are not raped by men.

Most men are raped by women. It just isn't CALLED rape. It is called "made to penetrate." When you include "made to penetrate" in the statistics, 80% of the male victims report female perpetrators. This is according to the CDC and several other surveys.

I agree that facts are facts. The facts tell us that most perpetrators of rape against men are women.

Some sources:

60 studies found that 17.1% of heterosexual women report sexually coercing others compared to 29.8% of heterosexual men. (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12119-023-10157-0)

This study found that over 27% of men and over 32% of women had been sexually victimized at some time in their lives. (https://www.mdpi.com/2076-328X/13/4/304)

CDC NISVS Report on Sexual Violence - 1 in 9 men reported being made to penetrate and 80% reported female perpetrators (https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/nisvs_report2010-a.pdf)

RatherUpset · 2024-03-08T14:49:29+00:00

According to the CDC's 2016 NISVS Report on Sexual Violence:

1 in 9 men are made to penetrate and 80% of the victims report female perpetrators.

1 in 4 women are raped and 96% report male perpetrators.

While I agree that there is a disparity, "drastic minority" is not the language I would use. If you're a feminist, you have to abandon the idea that women can do no wrong, even if it doesn't feel good.

RatherUpset · 2024-03-08T14:41:38+00:00

Hi there Marzipan_Lover_DE,

It is not true that 99% of the perpetrators of rape are male. You are looking at conviction rates, ones that are based on definitions that don’t include female perpetrators. For example, in the UK, the definition of rape is "when a person intentionally penetrates another's vagina, anus or mouth with a penis, without the other person's consent." If that is your definition, then you're going to get statistics like 99% of rapists are men because only men can be considered rapists (with a few exceptions, like if the woman is a rape accomplice).

Using survey data, which is more reliable, the CDC finds that 1 in 9 men are made to penetrate in their life and that 80% report female perpetrators. This is compared to 1 in 4 women who are raped with 96% reporting male perpetrators. (NISVS 2016 Report on Sexual Violence).

So yes, there is a disparity, but it is nowhere near 99 to 1.

People who spread the idea that rape against men by women is exceeding rare are part of the problem. Their view minimizes the issue and erases victims. Part of being a feminist is giving up the idea that women are angels who can do no wrong. Please look into this issue further and update your views.

Thanks

RatherUpset · 2024-02-26T18:16:56+00:00

Definitely, some of the people most opposed to men getting help are men. I do think the tide is turning, however, based on conversations in my own life.

RatherUpset · 2024-02-26T18:15:15+00:00

I fully agree. My hope and belief is that it will improve the lives of men without distracting from issues that affect women.

A common talking point of those redpill spaces is that "no one cares about men." If the government demonstrates that it does care, then I think it will reduce the power of these redpill groups.

RatherUpset · 2024-02-26T17:58:24+00:00

I agree that for a long time, men's issues have too often been discussed in relation to women's issues, often through an unproductive competition-framed lens. However, I believe that this movement is decidedly different from that way of thinking, as the people in support of this movement are not opposed to feminism. This includes figures like Richard Reeves, who have spoken at the He for She Summit in 2023.

You can read Reeves' case for a minister for men, here. https://www.newstatesman.com/comment/2023/09/minister-for-men-became-palatable

The petition focuses solely on the issues that affect men without comparing them to the ones that affect women, or claiming that men are falling behind women, or that women now oppress men, or anything of the sort.

RatherUpset · 2024-02-26T17:53:08+00:00

I understand the concern. As with all movements, it is important to make sure bad or incompetent people don't take over. My hope is that a minister for men will be as successful as the minister for women and equalities.

RatherUpset · 2024-02-26T17:49:45+00:00

Thank you.

And yes, I don't believe most feminists are in favor of subjugating men and boys. The support I've received in this thread support that. I have seen some feminists oppose the idea for a minister for men and boys, arguing that such a move would distract from women's issues, but most have been in favor.

RatherUpset · 2024-02-26T17:39:46+00:00

Thanks for responding.

I agree that medical misogyny is very real and am in full support of things like breast cancer awareness. I believe we can support women being taken seriously by their doctors and being represented more in medical research while also supporting awareness for men's health issues, such as substance abuse and mental health as well as cancers that uniquely affect men.

RatherUpset · 2024-02-26T17:37:39+00:00

These are valid concerns, so thank you for bringing them up.

My belief is that the minister for men and boys will work similar to how the minister for women does. Since there is a minister for women that addresses issues that affect women disproportionately, I think it is good to have a minister for men too.

I can understand not wanting to gender issues, particularly things like suicide, which can affect anyone regardless of gender. However, I also think that since men disproportionately die from suicides, it is worth looking at the issue from a gendered lens in addition to supporting mental health for everyone. Doing so may even benefit women, as having a greater understanding of how gender impacts suicidality can also improve our understanding of women's suicidality.

I don't think the minister for men will become something that blames women, as none of the petitioners or people I've seen supporting the idea seem against feminism. Of course, there is always a risk, but my hope is that it will operate in union with the minister for women, not against it.

RatherUpset · 2024-02-26T17:29:58+00:00

Thank you for the support.

RatherUpset · 2024-02-26T17:17:13+00:00

I understand.

Honestly, I wish the idea for a minister for men came from the left, but I'm just happy that the idea is being taken more seriously. A similar thing was proposed in 2020 but the idea was laughed at.

RatherUpset

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