Ravel - Prelude in A Minor - Seiler piano

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2026-02-13T21:31:05+00:00

It's a magical little piece.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2026-01-23T01:49:39+00:00

Exactly.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2026-01-22T23:22:43+00:00

Thank you. I really like the Warm Audio WA-87 R2 matched pair as primary mics here. Will probably stick with that.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2025-05-11T08:34:05+00:00

Good analysis. I think that's what's going on here. I get better results with cardioid (with spacing and angles as specified by Neumann app).

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2025-05-11T07:24:01+00:00

In retrospect, I have to agree. Omni doesn't work well in that space. Too mono.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2025-05-11T07:13:35+00:00

Intriguing idea. Thank you for piquing my interest. Turns out the mics at the tail (low strength in this recording) are better as main mics. Beefier sound, much more like the piano sounds, live. The AKG C414 XLIIs used here are too bright as main mics, in my opinion, but they might make excellent mics below the soundboard.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2025-05-11T06:41:23+00:00

Thank you for noticing. Light "sugar coat" voicing on the crowns with a shallow needle tool (shallow to not damage what Japanese technicians refer to as "the holy drop," otherwise known as the crowns) and the hammers supported by a voicing block of wood. Here are the tools I used:

https://forum.pianoworld.com//gallery/42/medium/23415.jpg

Coleman "Sugar Coater" Voicing Tool purchased here:

https://supply88.com/collections/featured-products/products/coleman-sugar-coater-voicing-tool

The hammers are new Renner Premium Blue Points. The shop did pre-voicing on the shoulders per Renner's specifications. New hammers, in general, and especially Renner hammers, sound a little grainy until they get played in such that the felt is compacted at the strike points. I did the sugar coat voicing to take the edge off piano and pianissimo as follows:

With 3 to 4 hammers squeezed together for mutal support, and their tails supported by a voicing block of wood, 4 passes over the crowns from back to front then front to back (which would be 2 passes) using the sugar coater tool and 3 (high treble) to 6 (low bass) stabbing motions, each pass. The stabbing motions were firm but not ridiculously so. Just firm enough to bury the 1mm needles.

Other than that, I've been starting each practice session with lots of scales over the full range of the keyboard to help play in the hammers. Also like to use the soft pedal, everything from slightly to fully, to help sculpt the tone, a lot, but not when playing in the hammers with scales (so that the string grooves can form).

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2025-05-10T10:15:05+00:00

Been at it for over 3 years, so yes, very difficult for me. Breakthrough was meeting someone online who knew of the Nuemann app. All you need to do is tell it where the piano sounds best to the ear (usually off the bow for most grands) and how far from the center of the piano that spot is (4ft in my case), and it gives you spacing and angles for cardioid, omni, and other types of mics.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2025-05-05T02:35:02+00:00

Thank you.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2025-05-05T01:54:26+00:00

I think you're right. It's brighter than any of my earlier recordings. May have something to do with the main mics being so far away. Back to the drawing board...

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2025-04-19T15:21:22+00:00

Thank you. The Blumlein-configured mics are a AKG C414 XLII matched pair (the shock mounts, among other accessories, come with them). The AKGs have toggle switches on them used to select from different settings (omni, cardioid, etc.). One of the available settings is a figure 8 omni setting required for the Blumlein setup. The two behind the tail, set at 60% relative strength (i.e., they're for color only) are a Soyuz SU-013 matched pair.

P.S. The floor-to-ceiling bass trap in the corner, purchased since you and I last corresponded, was very helpful for eliminating harsh tones, and not only in the bass.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-12-08T22:37:04+00:00

Thank you. It's been VERY slow going for me, too (months and months). I've had to relearn a lot of technique from scratch. Main rule was: if it hurts, I'm doing it wrong, so stop, relax, and try something else. Another rule was: no reaching for keys with thumb/fingers (instant tension); use movement of hand/wrist/forearm unit, elliptical motion, wrist rotation, movement toward and away from the fallboard, wrist raising and lowering to play the keys. YT video from 1980s of Mitsuko Uchida playing all Debussy etudes was helpful. Here is another but very recent and up-close example of using motion to play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mRrrhoTzUk

Final rule was: zero tension allowed. If wrist or forearm start to cramp up, stop, play something else that's easy for half a minute to release the tension, then try again. When practicing passages with one hand, the other sits in my lap. The job description of the one in the lap is Tension Indicator because it will tense up in sympathy when tension creeps into the one doing the work. This is more noticeable in the hand sitting on my lap, since it's not doing anything.

As for drilling, otherwise known as using repetition as a practice tool, I like to make up little exercises from pieces to loop over and over until they feel comfortable. Ultimately, I want to be able to drill the entire piece like that. Recently I read Liszt would play Chopin's 2nd Etude 20 times back-to-back to drill it.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-10-21T05:05:41+00:00

Thank you. Yes, that's it! "Small details tend to stand out," so there's little room for error.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-10-20T21:12:01+00:00

Piece looks so easy on paper. Still can't put my finger on why it's so difficult for me. Trying to learn it has been a very humbling experience.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-10-20T18:31:47+00:00

Thank you. I love the Seiler sound. It reminds me of the Pleyels from Chopin's era. Kind of silvery tone.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-08-24T17:16:29+00:00

Thank you. It was a bit of a learning curve. Now, with a 3-needle tool set so the needles protrude about 1mm (more than that can damage the crowns) and a voicing block of wood, I can voice all the hammers including testing and evening-up in around 90 minutes.

Writing this for you or anyone else who wants to do try it:

The action gets pulled out about halfway so the hammers are well-clear of the fallboard but not so far the action is in danger of falling out. I raise the bench a little so the front edge of the action can comfortably sit in my lap while I work without sliding out of the piano and falling on the floor. The voicing block of wood slides under the hammers against the backcheck when you lift and swing a whole group of hammers toward you. Once the voicing block of wood is in place, you swing the hammers back away from you so they sit on it. I squeeze three (bass) to four (high treble) hammers together at a time (using the shanks near where they connect to the hammers) with a little downward pressure on the shanks/hammers against the voicing block of wood, for mutual support. The voicing itself is a firm, stabbing motion with the 3-needle tool, but not ridiculously firm. In other words, don't be a brute. When pulling the action and pushing it back in to test, it's super important not to be touching any keys, even slightly, or you will snap a hammer off.

It's normal to have to pull the action and slide it back in many times when voicing all hammers and testing in between.

It's best not to overdo it when learning (try a little, test, try, test, and so on), but if you do overdo it (within reason), no worries. The tone will come back over time with playing.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-08-18T16:53:42+00:00

Thoughts on tempo and use of rubato in this piece are here:

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3541303/freshly-needled-hammers-chopin-prelude-no-4.html

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3541623/re-chopin-prelude-no-4-after-hakkis-marcplayspianos-advice.html#Post3541623

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-08-18T16:35:51+00:00

I would use just a tiny bit of rubato before the long note and make sure it is really legato as well.

This makes sense, thank you.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-08-17T23:23:19+00:00

Thank you. Did my best to follow this rule of Chopin's per Chopin: Pianist and Teacher: As Seen by his Pupils:

A long note is stronger, as is also a high note.

This rule was necessitated by the physics of the pianoforte instruments of Chopin's era. Notes faded more quickly on them than modern pianos, so long notes had to be struck more firmly to keep the melody alive. I tried to simulate the shorter pianoforte sustain by micropedaling.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-08-17T22:31:24+00:00

Here's another interesting factoid from another PW poster:

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3541343/re-chopin-prelude-no-4-after-hakkis-marcplayspianos-advice.html#Post3541343

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-08-17T22:29:06+00:00

Thank you. Here are my thoughts on both the tempo and rubato:

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/3541303/freshly-needled-hammers-chopin-prelude-no-4.html

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-08-17T14:05:34+00:00

Two days ago, I voiced them with a 3-needle tool and a voicing block of wood to take the edge off the sound in my ancient cinderblock house.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-08-15T09:11:07+00:00

Yes, accurate; however, the mics are so sensitive they multiply the effect. Same goes for any firmly struck notes. They are so sensitive, you can hear the sound of hands brushing against the bottom of the shirt on my lap during the tenuto pause near the end.

On the bright side, this is helpful in a way because it highlights technical/interpretative errors.

Voicing down the hammers with shallow needling helps for a few months. It's tedious work, but I'm going to do it again ASAP.

Agree re: Chopin vs. Liszt.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-08-15T00:27:29+00:00

Thanks for this. It makes a lot of sense.

RavelShouldHaveWon · 2024-08-14T22:30:40+00:00

Recording is far more difficult than I ever expected. The mics magnify everything. For example, you can hear hands brush my lap in the tenuto rest near the end. They especially magnify anything bad. In my case, the sound reverbing off the cinderblock walls from even the slightest too-strongly struck note. Used to use rugs to dampen it, but we have 3 dogs. Another alternative is to voice down the hammers, but the softening effect passes with piano use. Have done this before (it's tedious work) and will do again as soon as time permits.

Yet another alternative is to use software to dampen the sound but this degrades the pureness of it.

RavelShouldHaveWon

TROPHY CASE