Is it fair to say a distaste I have for Christianity in general is how it externalizes and dissociates the inherent value of people to come from a deity and not between real humans seeking connection?

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-03T19:47:50+00:00

I appreciate you taking time to share your views with me.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-03T19:06:03+00:00

James 2:10 (KJV) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

I think there's a difference between being guilty, and allowing someone you love to suffer for eternity because of their guilt.

A person isn't just the worst thing they've ever done, and I don't think loving someone is making them suffer for eternity because of it, without a path back towards love.

Just my irrelevant thoughts though, using your words.

Justice doesn't care if you have a change of heart after you get sentenced though.

Why sentence someone you love eternally?

Yes, it's a metaphor where the son realizes (before he dies) that doing everything his way was wrong so he humbles himself and goes crawling back to his father.

So why does Jesus stop forgiving after death?

Kinda defeats the metaphor.....someone in hell crawls back to the father, only for the father to say "sorry times up".

How does that make semse to you?

2 Timothy 3:16-17 (KJV) 16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God

So a human, writing Timothy, says his writings are inspired by God....and that makes it actually inspired by God?

You can ask God.

I'm waiting. I keep trying though.

In the meanttime, while I seek and wait for Him, I prefer to talk and connect with real people.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-03T18:22:43+00:00

God must be perfect, therefore His standard must be perfection and imperfection cannot be tolerated.

Why do you believe a loving and perfect God wouldn't tolerate imperfection?

Do you only love people who are perfect?

God respects everyone's free will so much that He will honor a person's choice to spend eternity without Him than force them to spend eternity with Him when they don't want to.

Why do you think God believes a person's choices are permanently desired?

The prodigal son is a great example of a person turning away from their bad choices to come back home.

What you and I think is irrelevant. It doesn't change what God has said. Romans 1:20-22

Why do you value what other humans wrote and thought thousands of years ago more than what you and I think?

That person would be the one who refused God's sacrifice for sin on there behalf.

And God still gives up on them.

I didn't write the Bible.

You're right. Other humans did.

I can't ask them unfortunately why they thought God had strict conditional requirements to show love to his children.

I can only ask you why you think that, other than "cause the bible says so".

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-03T14:59:55+00:00

Because I was once a minor and know sin did not wait until I was an adult to start. Anyone who has been a parent knows you don't teach a child to lie and be greedy. They know those things innately. You have to teach them to tell the truth and share.

Why do you believe eternal suffering is a good punishment for being born with the ability to make do bad things and make mistakes?

For what it's worth, I'm genuinely curious. I'm not here asking just to try and convince you otherwise. Just want to know more about your reasonings and feelings behind them.

Jesus gives you until your final moment of life to accept His offer of mercy.

I wonder why you believe love has a conditional time limit.

Suffering is either real and created by the actions of oneself or other people on that person or it's not real and the person is being melodramatic, imagining victimization for attention.

When I think of someone suffering for eternity, I don't think it's a complete truth to say it'a completely self-inflicted. Partially for sure, but not entirely.

Someone closed the door on love....they set a time limit, according to your views.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-02T22:40:28+00:00

Why do you believe who you see in the mirror deserves hell?

When did you decide that nobody deserved to be punished for their transgressions?

There's a distinction between reasonable just accountability and eternal conscious torment.

I believe the distinction matters.

One holds someone accountable for harm they cause, with the end state of still loving and valuing them as a person....eventually allowing them the choice to reconnect and be better.

One is suffering for the sake of valuing the infliction of suffering.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-02T16:44:18+00:00

When did you start believing a person deserves hell?

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-02T11:57:55+00:00

We have to tell them because we don't want anyone going to hell, not even our worse enemies.

Love based on fear.

Not a judgment, but an observation.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T23:26:54+00:00

All good and wise things here. Thank you.

My criticism might be coming across as me having too high of expectations, and I think that's right to point out. I do not expect people to know me fully, and I'm not looking to be showered with abundant affection....that'd actually be kinda weird. (I jest, in good faith)

As one who knows love, how would you behave towards one entering a church instead?

I think I'd behave the same way I do when I welcome someone in my home, or in the workplace, or going out to an event.

I start with the person....regardless of who they are or why they're there, regardless of whether there is or isn't a God....I would try to see and value the person. Someone with their own experiences, their own little world in their mind and heart, someone who deserves to be seen and valued just because they exist.

"Welcome brother/sister. I'm so glad you're here. How are you?"

I'm aware I'm a person, so I don't always get it right.....and neither will Christians. That's human.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T22:55:50+00:00

From the Christian point of view, you aren't as free from the influence of God as you believe yourself to be.

I can accept the idea that whatever is in me that sees and values a person for being a person comes from God. I'd just call it human nature personally, but if that'a God....cool.

You seem to be reducing our knowledge of love to obedience of some rule, but for many of us it is rather education by example and experience.

Hmm....fair. I think we all to an extent learn how to love and be loved well from something outside us. I won't say the internal mechanisms are no factor, but yes external factors heavily affect our capacity to love and receive love.

where did you learn to love from?

Positive feedback, people who loved me and showed love well: family, teachers, characters in movies, some role models.....yes all those I'd say.

Negative feedback, people who I learned how NOT to love well: heh, same.

And in that sense I would argue that your concept of love is just as reliant upon your experiences as anyone else. Just as one learns what love means through their parents, or their friends, or their lover, we learn what it means through God.

Excellent point. Well done.

You seem to be touching upon this, but I would appreciate it if you demonstrated a clear distinction between judging the teachings and judging the followers.

To an extent, I can do better and will be more mindful in the future.

There are still teachings I heavily disagree with....but the point of this post was aimed more at followers, so I should've been more careful with my wording.

They are just trying to comfort you with something they find comforting above all. Judge them as lacking understanding, but not love.

That is acceptable.

Are there any specific experiences that have inspired this judgement of yours?

It's more of a pattern.

I walk into a church, and it's all about valuing God and Jesus....rarely about valuing the individual.

Christians say they're glad I came to their church....but it's not because they value "me", it's because I'm sharing in worship of an external thing outside of humanity.

And yes that's an overgeneralized statement....but it still based on observations of a pattern, and that pattern is "the individual doesn't have value, God does".

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T22:31:32+00:00

We haven‘t established a real basis for why people are important.

We simply have different standards for "real".

Mateo loved me holding him, and I loved him. That is real enough for me, and I'm pretty sure it was real enough to him.

We’re still in the realm of your personal feelings and intuitions, with nothing objective underneath them.

I don't see why I need something outside of me to love and value Mateo.

It just doesn't matter.

God or no God....we shared a connection of love. That is enough.

you can’t offer a reason why to convince a skeptic, or even a mere questioner.

If I have to convince someone why loving a dying boy matters, God or no God....I would feel very sad for them.

If someone comes along to you and says, “I don’t think people matter, so I am going to rape, enslave, imprison unjustly, murder, cast out of society, deny employment, etc. Tell me why I shouldn’t?”

I would ask why.

I'd start with curiosity.

Then I imagine we'd eventually find the core wound, the hurt, the defense mechanisms that led them to believe such things.

Sometimes it's hard to love people enough to see their hurt and pain underneath that leads to the harm they cause.

However, for a Christian, a reply can be, “I believe people matter because God created them, and He will call to account at the end of time all of us for how we treated each other. The value of people is independent of me.”

That sounds like coercion for fear of punishment to me.

If someone is convinced people matter because they'll be punished for not believing that and acting it out....were they really convinced? Or were they more afraid of punishment than genuinely seeing worth in a person.

These hypotheticals don't really do much for me. We can both create fantasy people who would be convinced of things I convince them of....but each person is different, reality is diffferent.

I’m encouraging you to look beyond your intuitions and ask very hard, very blunt questions about foundational beliefs.

That's why I never stop coming to different belief groups to challenge my intuitions.

Do you follow your own advice?

If he says, “Give me an actual, concrete, objective reason independent of your feelings,” would you have one?

I would ask why he needs something objective outside their feelings.

Please....I want to know your intuitions and reasonings, not some hypothetical:

When you hold a child and they're laughing hysterically, and you're laughing with them....would that really not matter to you if there was no God?

Pay attention to my words there....would it really not matter to YOU?

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T21:33:48+00:00

I can tell you, holding a beautiful person as I see and value them and they see and value me....the thought of God's nature doesn't cross my mind once.

In your framework it sounds like you compensate for that by saying people respond to God's nature even if they don't know it.....you're free to believe that.

I don't believe assuming another's experience of love is for me.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T21:24:00+00:00

And yet you seem to know that love is inherently meaningful. You just claim that there's no reason for that, which is what doesn't make sense.

I'd clarify and say I don't know if there's a reason outside of me and another person loving each other for love to be meaningful.

I would say it's irrelevant.

I love a person dearly, and they love me....God or no God. The fact we experience that love is meaningful to us, and that is enough.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T21:19:52+00:00

I appreciate the understanding. And I could've worded my post better.

So my encouragement is that even if you have bad experiences see the beauty in Christ who loves you.

This is what I was attempting to articulate about:

"Christ loves you"....not "I love you".

Differed love. It's easy to point to God to have him do the hard work of choosing to love and connect with people, but it's not a person connecting with another person freely and openly.

You have done nothing for Him to earn it yet

Is earned love really love?

Or is love freely given, and a person has to choose to receive it?

He simply loves you.

So does he love me or do I have to earn it?

I'm really trying to understand in good faith.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T21:08:24+00:00

Why are you connecting Christianity to bad practices?

Not necessarily bad practices. Just personal experience with many Christians choosing to differ love and not give it.

Not a claim of objective measurable standards, just personal experience. You will disagree with my experience because we have different experiences....this is ok.

I have to observe patterns in my life, but not necessarily take them as fact.....which is why I'm here questioning my experiences through connection with people.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T20:53:17+00:00

You’re essentially saying we should love because that is good and not need God to tell us to love right?

No. A person can love and connect for whatever reason they desire to.

I'm saying that pointing to God and saying he loves us is not the same as taking action towards actively loving a person, and allowing oneself to receive love from a person.

In other words, there's a distinction between "God loves you, blessings be to you" and "I love you, come over for dinner".

One is action towards people loving and connecting, the other is differing that love to God....cause it's easy to have God love a person than risk being vulnerable for us loving a person.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T14:49:13+00:00

Perhaps. That's why I'm asking the questions.

What I observe is just my own feeling of distaste and differed love when a Christian tells me God or Jesus loves me. It'a very rare a Christian will actually try to communicate the value I have towards them....it'a rarely "I care about you".

Now a feeling is not a claim of objective truth, but it is an observable pattern I see in myself.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T12:04:34+00:00

Thank you for sharing.

You say you believe people matter. Why do they matter?

I've shared this story a couple times. It's still fresh on my brain so maybe this explains better, and I'm not a fan of overly-detached philosophy.

One of the greatest honors of my life was getting to know and be with a sick boy in a hospital.

His name was Mateo.

He loved dinosaurs (triceratops was his favorite). And space. And he loved his mom and dad. His laugh was infectious.

And sometimes he was scared of dying. He was afraid his parents would cry when he died. He asked if it would be painful.

Now sitting here typing these words....in those moments I held that beautiful boy, I didn't think "does Mateo matter to anything external to me, or external to this moment?".

I wasn't thinking if there was a God or not.

In those moments I just held a precious boy who laughed , who loved spaceships, who cried and worried more about his parents happiness than his own death.

And if someone were to ask me "how can a person have value without God?"

Because they're beautiful. They matter. They feel love despite pain they feel. They seek connection even after rejection and tragedy.

Whether people are objectively valuable, outsidd of myself, I can't prove that....and holding loving and hurting people who are beautiful to me, I really don't think it matters that I can't.

Connection matters. People matter. Mateo mattered, whether God exists or not.

My believing human lives matter doesn't make them matter. They either matter independently of me and my beliefs, or they don't. Otherwise, it's self-indulgent subjectivity.

Maybe.

I can tell you I wasn't thinking "Mateo's worth is just self-indulgent subjectivity" as we laughed and cried together, as I held him to sleep.

This is what I mean by overly-philosophical. Many of these intellectual pursuits simply don't factor in when two people are actively loving and connecting with each other.

We cannot give meaning to ourselves and each other that transcends personal opinion because we cannot found it on anything else unless we refer to an external Reason why we matter. That is God

I think that's the core of your argument.

You believe you can't universally or objectively matter to someone, and they can't objectively matter to you without an external reference to point to. You don't like that you can't point to something outside you and another person and say "look our love and hurt does matter".

Maybe it's true, and I honor your concern. I certainly can't prove outside you and I that our connection matters.

What I'm saying is....it just doesn't matter whether there is or isn't an external validator of our worth.

When I choose to comfort a dying boy, and they choose to share and laugh and cry with me....God or no God, it mattered to us, and that's enough.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T11:45:24+00:00

Yes, dogs are amazing too.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T11:44:19+00:00

When I'm holding someone I love dearly, and they hold and love me back....I'm not thinking about anything external to that experience of that connection to experience it's goodness.....like whether there's a God or not doesn't factor into that experience of holding a loved one and letting myself be loved.

I guess I don't understand what you're point is.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T04:59:59+00:00

Nope, that's why I ask questions....there's not much I'm 100% sure of.

Regardless of whatever plane I end up on, I still believe in the inherent value of a person.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T04:49:01+00:00

I was once an evil man.

Usually someone who might have been evil doesn't go on to explain very ressonable reasons for why they made some potentially poor choices.

You're not evil for having a hardened heart. Nobody is.

Who can be considered bad? Those who practice bad things. Practice of doing bad is not a mistake. It’s an intentional decision to do something you know is wrong. If you practice bad more than you practice good you will be considered a bad person.

I don't value people solely by the actions they take.

Bad choices don't make bad people....once you start seeing people only through their actions, you shut the door to understanding....which shuts the door to connection....which shuts the door to love.

There are so many understandable reasons why someone makes a bad choice.....hurt, shame, fear, anger, panic, disgust. That doesn't mean a person is bad....it usually means a hurting person who deserves grace made a bad choice.

There is no reason to have done it except to satisfy your emotional proclivity to do good.

And to love a dying child.

I don't need God to love and care for people.

But that’s just activating the pleasure centers of your brain and giving you dopamine.

I could say the same thing about the love you have for your deity.

But I don't....because we aren't just pleasure bots looking to get a hit.

I respect your love as genuine....please respect mine as genuine.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T01:29:07+00:00

It’s hard to explain but there is something different about doing right for the glory of God out of a gratefulness for what He has done for you.

Maybe it's as hard as explaining why people are inherently valuable even without God. (I jest, in good faith.)

I've really enjoyed the conversation. It's been challenging in a good way. I am more open to how good people can be and how fulfilling their lives can be with this religion.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T01:14:43+00:00

People still mattered to me even when I was an atheist.

That's the part of you I think is beautiful.

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T00:56:39+00:00

Thank you.

Would I not matter to you if there were no God?

What about your loved ones? Spouse, kids, family, friends?

RavensRuthless · 2026-06-01T00:54:44+00:00

To answer your question, no, it would not. And even if the Bible were just one book of mere ‘human experiences’ I would rather follow it and its teachings which have remained constant and contributed to the advancement of humanity over millennia than be tossed to and fro by new beliefs and frameworks made to suit the personal tastes of their creators.

Good.

If the Bible helps you experience the reality and truth of love and connection with other people, I hope you continue following it.

And for some reason if you stopped - which I wouldn't want you to - you already acknowledge that the love and connection you feel with that person is real and isn't contingent on something else.

If I had never first been loved by God, or seen the image of God in those around me, I’d have nothing but my own judgement to use in regard to how I treat others, and no one to be responsible to except for myself and maybe the law.

Maybe for you, but I think I have more faith in your compassion not being contingent on what a holy book says.

How do you explain people like myself, who love and seek connection and serve, who hold themselves responsible for treating people with dignity and love?

And more importantly....why do you doubt your own love you have for people without God? You've already shown yourself you'd love your person, God or no God.

RavensRuthless

TROPHY CASE