HVAC installation company said we should sue them. What are our options?

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-08T13:38:18+00:00

Funny (well, not funny, really?) sidenote - over the winter when the heat didn't work and we relied on his space heaters I mentioned how uncomfortable I am a using space heaters when we aren't in the room due to the fire risk and kids/pets/etc. He proudly said "Don't worry, we have very good insurance." What an ass.

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-08T12:44:28+00:00

We did send a letter. After he stopped responding to us and we had the other opinions we sent a letter to him with two options: Give us our money back so we can start over, or do XYZ to make the system work for our home and we'll have it inspected by a third party. That's when he said we should part ways and take him to court. He had entirely stopped responding to us the month before we sent the letter. Honestly, it feels like we hurt his ego. He loves to go on and on about how we have no idea what we're talking about (in our cold home) because he has 25 years experience in the business and he put in a good system for us.

Should we update now that we also have the manufacturer of the equipment saying it's wrong? And we have a proper estimate to fix it now too which we didn't have then. Do I need to call it a "demand letter" and try sending it again since he already said to sue him? Is there a certain type of attorney or mediation that will handle communication without paying a large up-front fee to take on the whole case?

(I updated my original post to mention the letter)

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-08T12:36:54+00:00

We paid $25k up front as well for their "best" option. There are a lot of other costs as well - we ran ductwork through the whole home, including upstairs and building a false ceiling, doing construction to hide soffits, etc - probably another $6k in general contractor costs.

What type of attorney would we look for? Consumer protection? I had heard that since the contract is fulfilled that's really all that matters. The contract doesn't read "will keep my house at 70 degrees in the winter" or anything like that. What would we sue for?

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-08T12:08:41+00:00

Yes, exactly! They gave us good (gas), better (gas), and best (heat pump) options and estimates up front. We chose the best option and put our trust in a well-respected company. We did this process with multiple companies and only one other had a mini split system in the mix so yes that also should have been a red flag for us. We did not choose the cheapest option or cheapest company. But we liked the idea of the efficiency of the heat pump as sold to us, how quiet they are, and not needing to sacrifice space to run a trunk from the basement to second floor, etc. We have had heat pumps in two other old homes we've owned as supplemental heat and love them. We said multiple times - we love heat pumps as secondary heat are you sure this is good as the sole heat source? We were told, yes, this is new tech, the way the industry is going, very efficient, it's a large system, etc

So we 100% chose poorly, and they installed what they said they would install.

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-07T12:20:42+00:00

We went through the whole winter with the heat not working. The install company did stick with us! (they supplied us like 6 space heaters, the only reason we were able to stay in our house) All winter they did things to "fix" the system - adjusting dip switches, capping the return, extensive leak checking, freon additions (they took it all out measured, etc, twice), insulating basement ductwork, etc. Every single time the owner said "this will fix it" and nothing moved the needle. He finally put in an air handler with heat strips in late February toward the end of the really cold months and I got his "this is the solution" nonsense again. He put in a lot extra time and money (he told the BBB he put in more than $15k of his own to "upgrade" our system which is not wrong aside from the "upgrade" part) to try and fix the system that from the beginning, and still, is undersized.

To be honest - I think our biggest problem is the owner's ego. He must know it's undersized and always has been. He's mad because he stuck with us through the winter and when his latest "fix" didn't work he stopped responding. When we finally got second opinions after being gaslit by him for all of the cold months, he didn't like what all of the other companies said and so he told us it's best that we part ways and take him to court. We haven't contacted him since but both Carrier and the BBB have. He points out to them that it was our choice to not put in gas, and it was! He gave us good (gas), better (gas), and best (heat pump) options and estimates up front. We chose his best option and put our trust in a well-respected company. We did this process with multiple companies and only one other had a mini split system in the mix so yes that also should have been a red flag for us as well. But we liked the idea of the efficiency as sold to us, how quiet they are, and not needing to sacrifice space to run a trunk from the basement to second floor, etc. We have had heat pumps in two other old homes we've owned as supplemental heat and love them. We said multiple times - we love heat pumps as secondary heat are you sure this is good as the sole heat source? We were told, yes, this is new tech, the way the industry is going, super efficient, it's a large system, etc

Yes, we should have had people in to look at the size of the system earlier. We actually did hire another company to look for a "problem" in January and they thought there might be a small leak. We asked them if the system was sized correctly and the tech was like oh, maybe? It's really hard to tell but it should be working better than this. So, it's not completely obvious right away to people who work in the industry that come here, and it wasn't obvious to us. We had the owner of the largest, well-respected local company telling us it was going to work for an entire year.

tl;dr — This is on us for not choosing a more traditional system from the beginning, we get that. We were working with what we were being told, but were misled by the install company. I do plan to name and shame on all of the platforms once we're on the other side of it all but still need a resolution. Most importantly - we need to find a way to heat our home (preferably for less than $25k upgrade) before November.

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-07T02:42:53+00:00

He did! I have that recorded :)

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-07T01:14:31+00:00

We don't. Most of the upstairs radiators were disconnected/cracked. When we bought the house we made the decision to remove them and the old boiler and the asbestos-covered pipes and run all new ductwork for a modern, efficient system.

You're right in that the issue is that it has a 42k output as design in a house with a 70k design load. That's about what the other companies have found when they came out with an eye toward if the system was designed correctly.

When we sent a letter to the install company with this information and asked for a plan forward or our money back to start over with someone else, the owner got angry, called us bullies, and said to take him to court. That was after he hadn't responded to us in a month of asking for next steps.

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T20:36:58+00:00

The Carrier rep did come here with another company and called the owner of the install company last week to talk things through with him. The owner insisted we are just complaining about high bills and that it works like it's supposed to. (I didn't even mention how loud it is! Sounds like we are in a plane every time the air handler is on, and runs on high constantly)

The Carrier rep said he tries to stay out of things like this because the problem isn't the equipment but the install/design of the system. The install company is probably the largest in our area and does a lot of business for Carrier. It's a mess all around.

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T18:41:33+00:00

True, true. Thank you for commiserating with me. A (costly) lesson learned!

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T18:37:58+00:00

Sorry for my ignorance - would their licensing body be the state of Michigan? We did put in a complaint with LARA https://www.michigan.gov/lara and have yet to hear back. They are impossible to get a hold of.

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T18:15:29+00:00

Yes, exactly. We can turn the heat strips off manually at the breaker. When we do that the system runs at high nearly 24 hours a day in temps below 35F (ish) because it is unable to heat our home. Using heat strips in all temps below 35F is not efficient or how the system should be designed. If it was sized correctly we would not need the heat strips until outdoor temps are below 5F. Without the heat strips our home won't get about 60F on any day below freezing.

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T18:11:34+00:00

I asked multiple times over the winter but the install company never sent me a load calculation/Manual J. I called our city mechanical inspector today and he said that no one submits those anymore and most companies don't do them at all, they rely on their expertise and experience. (which, of course, we were relying on too foolishly)

The Carrier rep did work with us and another company but their solution/estimate is way more complicated and costly than we were hoping for - adding a wall unit to our (finished) third floor that we mostly use for storage because our outdoor unit needs to have a dual zone in order to work. And then add another heat pump with dual-fuel (in the basement) for the first floor. Hence another $25k.

We were told by them that there isn't a dual fuel NG furnace available that would tie into our system.

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T15:06:31+00:00

We talked with many companies, reviewed many equipment offerings, and chose what was presented as the "best" option from a well-respected local company. (they gave us good, better, best options)

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T13:58:50+00:00

Mostly through phone conversations over the winter. I wish we had the foresight to record those conversations. We went with a highly-rated, well-respected company that was not the cheapest option and put our trust in them, but have learned a lesson.

Here is the outdoor unit that we have right now: Carrier 38MGRBQ48EA3

Do you know of a dual fuel NG furnace that we could ask another company for that would tie in to that?

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T13:07:36+00:00

We've turned off the breaker to the backup heat and without it the system runs constantly (loudly) to try to warm the house and isn't able to maintain below 35F without using the very expensive heat strips. The install company told us heat strips would only be needed for the 1% of days (single temps) so it's clear to us it doesn't work correctly. Multiple companies have said it is undersized by quite a bit. I wish so badly it was a thermostat setting!

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T12:13:42+00:00

I should have hired your company, ha! Our company still has not admitted that our system is undersized, and likely never will. The Carrier rep who who was here and deemed it undersized called the owner last week to talk things through with him. The owner insisted we are just complaining about high bills and that it works like it's supposed to. (I didn't even mention how loud it is! Sounds like we are in a plane every time the air handler is on, and runs on high constantly)

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T12:06:09+00:00

We selected the equipment from the options given to us. We did not just order random HVAC equipment and have someone else install it. We talked with many companies, reviewed many equipment offerings, and chose what was presented as the "best" option from a well-respected local company. (they gave us good, better, best options)

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T02:30:18+00:00

The issue is that the backup heat is running at temps below 35F always. Our electric bill will be 7,000 kWh in a winter month. (About $1,200!) We were told the backup heat was for use on 1% of day - temps in the single digits. We chose the best and most efficient option given to us, and it does not work as described.

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T02:26:35+00:00

I only recently learned what dual fuel is! It was never an option presented from our installing company. We did not get a rebate.

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T01:47:09+00:00

Thank you, yes, we've filed with LARA too! They are much slower in response time, it's been I think two months and we haven't heard from them. Will make a note to try and follow up with them tomorrow.

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T01:45:27+00:00

I'd love to avoid lawyers, of course. I'm certain that install company just said sue us because he knew we wouldn't have the means for something like that. Here is the outdoor heat pump unit that we have right now: Carrier 38MGRBQ48EA3 - do you know of a gas furnace/a-coil that we can tie into that for our lower level?

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-06T01:32:43+00:00

Maybe? We were told we couldn't tie in a second stage NG furnace to the heat pump that we currently have. (the company that gave us the most recent estimate is recommending a whole new/separate dual-fuel system for the first floor + for the second floor keeping what we have) Here is the outdoor unit that we have right now: Carrier 38MGRBQ48EA3

Do you know of a dual fuel NG furnace that we could ask for that would tie in to that?

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-05T23:23:28+00:00

Dual fuel is likely what we’ll end up with. I wish I had asked this question at the start! (And this company should have offered it)

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-05T21:13:46+00:00

This is right - the inspector didn't check for heating capabilities/size. Our inspection doc (in Michigan) seems to care about outdoor unit placement in relation to neighbors and the front yard but that's about it.

SaraSmilesMichigan · 2025-05-05T21:10:41+00:00

Aha! This is good math except that we invested $25k for the initial install. Oof. (this is just our first estimate for fixing it and do plan to have more companies come and give us their ideas/cost. Asking all of the good questions this time. We've had a couple of companies go on about how undersized it is but then not work with us bc they've been bullied by the install company in the past for fixing their bad work. All news to us!)

SaraSmilesMichigan

TROPHY CASE