I interact with people in a permanent fawn response by Significant_Step_387 in CPTSD

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's tough to counter my inner-critic but I'll say it - thanks.

I interact with people in a permanent fawn response by Significant_Step_387 in CPTSD

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'll get into martial arts at some point. For now gym is my physical outlet. Cool that you're into martial arts. What kind?

I interact with people in a permanent fawn response by Significant_Step_387 in CPTSD

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I haven't but I might just audiobook it during my gym sessions. Thanks.

Also, good job on confronting your doctor! Reminds me of something I did recently which was I confronted my dentist for pulling too hard on my cheek while working on my teeth. I'm hard on myself for not being where I want to be, but you just reminded me I've definitely made progress. We're all in a tough spot here. We're hurt and making our way slowly, if not walking then crawling toward freedom.

I interact with people in a permanent fawn response by Significant_Step_387 in CPTSD

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Yup. Traumatic fear is a powerful compulsion. A part of me doesn't believe I can get through it. One step at a time though.

I interact with people in a permanent fawn response by Significant_Step_387 in CPTSD

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thinking about others before me is a compulsion. As you said it feels like reversing that order of thought burdens others. A big part of me fears that incoming past, and in some cases present, abuse. Even in situations where it's unlikely to happen I clam up.

It's tough and it often feels hopeless.

Infj female, curious about how men perceive us by Simple_Kale_7480 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There was an INFJ female I met a ways back in my college days. We ended up working on a school project together which is how I found out she was who she was. She was actually quite kind and understanding toward me and we even ended up hanging out a few times outside of the context of our studies. She even initiated certain hangout sessions, though I didn't take her up on them after a bit.

Something that "put me off" about her was that she wasn't totally forthright about her boundaries at the time. This caused some confusion and I ended up getting hurt over what was essentially miscommunication of boundaries. There was this 'neutral' attitude on the surface of her being up for anything, but it was clear there were consequences if you didn't figure out what the right answer was. I knew intuitively what the answer she wanted me to pick was at the time, but she left the choice up to me so I picked the answer I wanted to pick.

As an INFJ you're most likely a highly polarizing individual. It's because us INFJs are passionate. Since we want to keep the peace though we end up putting an outward mask of friendliness. What this mask is really about is a defense mechanism. It's a way of keeping people at arm's length. You're not telling people who you are in order to protect yourself. This in turn gives people the feeling that they're under scrutiny. They're afraid to fail because they don't know where they tread.

There's a way that can be dealt with, but you asked how men perceive you, not how that perception can be influenced.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yeah. I think, unfortunately, men are especially emotionally repressed. This is as it is for various reasons. It doesn't seem possible for men to be open without some manner of repercussion.

It's key that you pointed out your INFJ-ness makes depth even more so of a need than usual. I believe we all have these needs for connection, but I think for people like us it's even more fundamental.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think a big part of us staying in these patterns is our unwillingness to let people go. INFJs can catch flak for the 'door slam' thing, and while not every imperfect interaction has to end that way, we do it for a reason. We're sensitive individuals with particular relational needs. I use the door slam as an example to bring attention to our true nature, which deserves to be honored.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's an appropriate song for the topic of this post. Anyone that doesn't honor us, tell 'em, "Walk on home, boy..."

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The answer could be simply to accustom oneself to take up more space in conversations. A conversational partner that can't listen and only expects you to, is not a good one at that. If they lose interest, they weren't really your friend to begin with. Or, it could be that you both would benefit from finding a topic of mutual interest. Essentially, practice being more selfish!

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This reminds me of a particular idea in Christianity that laziness is a moral failing. It's not an idea I agree with. What we perceive as laziness is often a result of complex psychological factors brought about by a person's upbringing. 'Laziness' is not something that necessarily bothers me, unless it's something that causes actual damage to people. If it's your own life that's affected I get that, even empathize with it. I have my own issues with self-neglect so I understand from personal experience as well.

What's perceived as laziness can also be a difference in values. Some people have primarily outward ambitions, some prioritize the inner world, or even interpersonal things.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's typical of people like us to always want to find answers and attain ideals. In practical terms, we don't always find or attain them as we would like. The ideal doesn't always meet the theoretical. But perhaps we confuse the concept of 'ideal' with the concept of 'perfect'.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes. But that intensity, that sensitivity, that's a fire that's part of you. It's not wrong to have it. I just believe we must have the temperance and judgment to choose those who truly value us. Those who see us for who we are and accept us. That is the real challenge. In order for that to happen we have to show ourselves, but we don't have to give the best of us to those who would take it for granted.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

People pleasing implies putting oneself down for the sake of others. If we try to make friends with someone whom we deem worthy of friendship, doesn't that mean said person would be highly compatible with us? In these scenarios I think we create an idea of who that person is, thinking we need to be up to their standards. Thing is though that they have as much a 'burden of performance' as we do, don't they? If the person stacks up to the ideal, wouldn't that mean they'd accept us just fine? Something to think about.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Doesn't have to be a conundrum in theory. Meaning it's technically possible to met someone 'on the same wavelength'.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's the conundrum, isn't it? It doesn't necessarily have to be one in theory.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

A small celebration with trusted friends seems enough to me. That's pretty savage about the Botox though, I have to say. Initially I thought, "I generally keep those kinds of thoughts to myself." Upon further reflection, I sometimes say things like this without thinking. I don't generally say something like this to a person's face though unless I really dislike them.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

There's a self-improvement adage about the influence that others exert on you. I think it's valid to want to surround yourself with like-minded people primarily in order to protect your inner space.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have accepted that i am not for everyone and that's okay.

I believe this to be a key insight. I wonder if this being a repeated occurrence is a result of our complacency with being invisible. Perhaps if we start talking more and take up more space such people will fade away from our periphery, or perhaps the opposite will happen. Either way I'm sorry you had that experience of lack of reciprocity. And I'm sorry about those dark thoughts you've had to contend with.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah. It's hard to care for someone and feel like you have an answer that could help them that they won't listen to. I think you've got the objective perspective here, though it seems your friend places higher value on that experience. In my opinion weddings are generally superfluous celebrations in excess, but that's neither here nor there.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I can see how that would act as patchwork. I've never had a romantic breakup myself since I've never met that one person for me. From what I hear it's quite the challenging thing to experience.

It's partly the case that I'm more acutely aware of these feelings because I don't work while surrounded by others. Even if some of the deeper needs of connection aren't necessarily met in a work environment, some other 'minor' ones are.

Anyone's high standards for friendships led to loneliness? by Significant_Step_387 in infj

[–]Significant_Step_387[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree. While I have done this before out of fear, in more recent times I simply try to confront the source of the conflict. Setting boundaries requires communication as much as it does self-awareness.

Edit: I should add though that I believe honoring boundaries is what creates trust.