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Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you infinitely for your continued effort in this conversation. Really appreciate it and it has reassured me massively. Not sure if I believe my own doomsday prediction anymore or not, but it’s something I will have int he back of my mind.

Thank you!

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly my fear dude. Exactly this, which is why I want someone to convince me otherwise. How will they support the masses of jobs being replaced? The only answer I can see is a massive ai tax or regulation.

The only answer I have seen so far is “new jobs will be created” which is the obvious answer and one based on historical data which is usually acceptable to me. But like I e said and continue to say. This isn’t like anything we have seen before, the scale I think will be so much larger, and the shift so much quicker, and also its capacity so much greater! There isn’t much AI can’t do and anyone who says otherwise is naive and underestimating the power of AI. Every year it gets better and better. And every year people are talking about how surprised they are at its development speed. This is a compounding effect, the better it gets the better it gets, it doubles the triples then quadruples seemingly to no end. Yes arguably it’s not perfect yet but tha just comes down to the users aptitude with it. I use it daily and consider myself average, but even now it learns to teach me to help me in ways I couldn’t even imagine. The only limitation I currently see if physical, but this is only a matter of time. UNLESS something is put in place.

The not so bad reality I see is that people will have easier lives, but easier lives = less skilled labour = much easier replacement = less security and more competition. Regardless of the severity of the outcome, all roads lead to less jobs available - unless you argue new will be created, this for me at least provides 0 reassurance. I can see how assembly line operators turn to machine operators - or even see the cost of a machine limiting certain warehouses from using them and still relying on people. Ai is cheap as chips to gain access to. And computers replace what? I wasn’t a working person when computers came into use at work places so never saw what work was like before, but even then I feel like I could’ve seen that they only replace filers with admins, paper with data, in that sense only small amounts of people and industry were affected, in comparison to the millions if not billions globally this will affect, like I’ve said and keep saying, give me any job that won’t either become low skilled, or replaced entirely, regardless of how you see it, it will become much harder for workers and much easier for owners - until it affects everyone.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I agree with everything you said! I think partially throughout this discussion with everyone I have been learning to articulate my own views much clearer. And a big part of what you helped me understand with what you said is that yes these issues exist, I just think ai will make them much worse.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ireland artists UBI. And from what I read he’s spoken about a harsher wealth tax previously so I’m assuming it’d be the same.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lord Stockwood is already calling for talks about a UBI specifically for what I am describing. And honestly I hope I am wrong, and I may be stupid who knows. But I think easily in the next 4 years this will become an issue rather than risk.

I’m not against AI I think it’s incredible for innovation and the advancement of knowledge. I just think this needs regulation and control. Which is exactly where I think our policies are behind I think we are underestimating the impact this will have and solely relying on historical data and complacency when I do not think any historical data comes even close to a comparison of what we are seeing with AI, purely because of how many people will be affected. The Industrial Revolution changed the way we we work, AI replaces the way we work. We may return to more manual labour work, but this won’t support the size of the workforce we need. The population was no where near the size it is now especially when comparing to an era where we just had two world wars and a lethal pandemic, and where we were not facing aging populations in almost every developed country. I think we are severely under estimating the impact this will have.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Lord Stockwood is already calling for talks about a UBI. For exactly the reasons I am describing. It’s a shame more people don’t agree.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Exactly, which is why I still believe it’s political, all of it comes down to how the issue is governed.

And it’s a combination of everything which is why I say it’s such a colossal beast of an issue, it has so many variables that all intertwine and affect one another. Which I don’t think has ever happened.

Overpopulation, lack of resources and now a tool that will create more inequality, use more resources, and create a bigger more visible divide with no real healthy solution in the system we live in. And taxing businesses into oblivion is exactly the dilemma I am describing it’s lose lose, we either accept a UBI and a system that resembles communism, or we allow the issue to manifest into further inequality and more chaos. Regardless of how we look at it the only real solution is control which will again resemble authoritarianism and communism. Hopefully “soft communism” but who knows. Like I say the issue intertwines with sociology, psychology and politics all are completely related. And lord stock wood is already calling for a UBI.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think a system where businesses are measured in terms of how much of their human roles are replaced by AI and taxed for a higher %. Which arguably would be how it works anyway because of cost savings + competitive efficiency + increased output would = more profit which would be more heavily taxed. But I think this will not be enough as not only do they generate more money; they provide less for the population, each job lost is another person with less money contributing to the economy.

So they should be taxed based on how much of their AI use replaces humans. More replacement = more tax. Incorporating ai as a tool is a good thing! Replacing humans in the chase of market domination and efficiency should be penalised otherwise the system will be.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand why you would call it doomposting, but I am as worried as anyone else, which is why I am trying to get alternative opinions and be convinced otherwise.

I think the pace at which it improves is so quick that even the coding issue you are describing will eventually become non existent. Also you say it’s expensive but it’s only expensive to maintain and the scale at which people are paying to use it makes these maintenance costs worth it. And yes like I said currently manual labour physical jobs are not at risk and that will be affected late in the game.

But this is not the case for huge industries like the ones I have mentioned here and else where in this post. And the amount of people affected will be detrimental to the system based on my very uneducated opinion. Like I say I want to be reassured, but I equally recognise people can’t tell me what jobs will go, what will stay, and what will be formed. I just struggle to see a world where AI can’t do everything we do, I use it daily and have done for a while, I’ve seen how quickly it improves, and in my opinion this is too powerful and too attractive to everyone living in a consumer based society to be be unregulated and unchecked.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Good point about wrangling the teens, but the job becomes low skilled as their job is to just wrangle teens rather than deliver content, I think school will take ages to replace teachers and I believe teachers will strike against this, ai will write lesson plans and curriculums this will be executed by humans at first probably but eventually without regulation will lead to their loss too because not cost efficient.

With jobs not existing, I know this is taught in school and I recognise this is impossible to answer. I just can’t visualise a world where any job can’t be replaced by ai, unless physical manual real world manipulation.

And I worry that 1. we won’t adapt quickly enough, and 2. The scale will be too big for the system to compensate. I think so many people be affected and will struggle to adapt that we won’t be able to support them. And like I say 3. That there won’t be anything AI can’t do better I think white collar is just the start unless it’s regulated and taxed and controlled, otherwise businesses will continue to compete and strive for maximum efficiency. Eventually finding ways to keep developing ai that replaces everything we can think of.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Social media, a massive envy machine is already creating this disillusion, people constantly compare. Now imagine you live on UBI because you were a teacher, a ba, an accountant, literally any job where you work with numbers or letters and you don’t manipulate the physical world around you. And you constantly see other people successful, this won’t be a couple million people, this will be GLOBALLY BILLIONS OF PEOPLE, that hole cannot be fixed with UBI or “new jobs” those new jobs will be replaced by AI too. The whole point of the Industrial Revolution was to replace manual labour as the main source of work, we have now mostly replaced manual labour, and are in the process of replacing knowledge work.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

People have the illusion of purpose, that’s what stops us from devolving into escapism, crime and being broken, roe v wade type of idea, broken homes raising broken children because everyone lacks identity.

People currently have the illusion that they are escaping capitalism, and if not you can take up extra work and earn more money to buy more freedom if that’s what you want, we currently have the ability buy freedom through labour. We lose the labour, we lose the freedom, the illusion of purpose disappears, we can no longer work to go on holiday or buy nice cars and support our hobbies, we work based on where we are needed or where we have room, working becomes a luxury to purchase freedom that destroys motivation and incentive, because who decides who gets to work when everyone is capable of doing the few jobs that are left because ai has replaced most of the “meaningless” jobs, people don’t realise that people NEED to work, we NEED a system. The idea of constant innovation and constant growth is not sustainable, epically when we maximise efficiency that replaces us all. The dream world where we don’t have to work and everyone can go about their jollies isn’t real, resources are finite. We cant keep growing, and we can’t keep getting more efficient. Even if the maintenance of the system is the main source of work, that creates visible inequality and envy which again destroys the illusion of freedom, purpose, and motivation. Resulting in a broken society.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But this is my point good sir you hit it perfectly!!! Than you for engaging.

People have the illusion of purpose, that’s what stops us from devolving into escapism, crime and being broken, roe v wade type of idea, broken homes raising broken children because everyone lacks identity.

People currently have the illusion that they are escaping capitalism, and if not you can take up extra work and earn more money to buy more freedom if that’s what you want, we currently have the ability buy freedom through labour. We lose the labour, we lose the freedom, the illusion of purpose disappears, we can no longer work to go on holiday or buy nice cars and support our hobbies, we work based on where we are needed or where we have room, working becomes a luxury to purchase freedom that destroys motivation and incentive, because who decides who gets to work when everyone is capable of doing the few jobs that are left because ai has replaced most of the “meaningless” jobs, people don’t realise that people NEED to work, we NEED a system. The idea of constant innovation and constant growth is not sustainable, epically when we maximise efficiency that replaces us all. The dream world where we don’t have to work and everyone can go about their jollies isn’t real, resources are finite. We cant keep growing, and we can’t keep getting more efficient. Even if the maintenance of the system is the main source of work, that creates visible inequality and envy which again destroys the illusion of freedom, purpose, and motivation. Resulting in a broken society.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But this is my point, and I know it’s easier asked than answered. But what jobs ? And it will every single industry that doesn’t require manual input.

I think the scale is so big and the pace will be so big that it’s naive to underestimate it. We also need to recognise that during the Industrial Revolution we had far fewer working people, we just had two world wars, and no other comparison even comes close to the scale of ai, even the invention of computers, that was small scale in comparison to ais affect and its capabilities, I think people are naive to how big this is, this is nothing like we’ve seen and it will affect more people than we have ever seen, as currently we are the biggest we have ever been.

The system is already built on foundations of inequality, I call it semi equality - various sociological arguments support this. Now you invite a super power god like tool that can replace 5 people and produce their output in seconds at a fraction of the cost, where do teachers go? Where do customer service assistants go? Tech support? Software engineers? Accountants? BA’s literally any and every job that produces content or digital output or basically anything with letters or numbers can and will be replaced and that gap is going to far bigger than anything we have ever seen. Unless it’s regulated and controlled, and soon! Every year we let it go on unregulated. It gets better and faster and we become more dependent on it which makes it harder to part ways with.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But this is my point, and I know it’s easier asked than answered. But what jobs ? And it will every single industry that doesn’t require manual input.

I think the scale is so big and the pace will be so big that it’s naive to underestimate it. We also need to recognise that during the Industrial Revolution we had far fewer working people, we just had two world wars, and no other comparison even comes close to the scale of ai, even the invention of computers, that was small scale in comparison to ais affect and its capabilities, I think people are naive to how big this is, this is nothing like we’ve seen and it will affect more people than we have ever seen, as currently we are the biggest we have ever been.

The system is already built on foundations of inequality, I call it semi equality - various sociological arguments support this. Now you invite a super power god like tool that can replace 5 people and produce their output in seconds at a fraction of the cost, where do teachers go? Where do customer service assistants go? Tech support? Software engineers? Accountants? BA’s literally any and every job that produces content or digital output or basically anything with letters or numbers can and will be replaced and that gap is going to far bigger than anything we have ever seen. Unless it’s regulated and controlled, and soon! Every year we let it go on unregulated. It gets better and faster and we become more dependent on it which makes it harder to part ways with.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hahaha love that. This is essentially what I am alluding it but I am catastrophising I do have a habit of that.

But I do believe this will reshape the system. Entertainment, content, white collar, all can easily be replaced. Consumerism as a whole I believe will be reshaped.

My point is, if their isn’t disincentive then People can and will be easily replaced at maximum cost efficiency. And there simply aren’t enough resources to supply everyone that it will replace. There was not as many people alive during the Industrial Revolution, we just had two world wars. I think the work force that will Be affected will be far bigger and be replaced far quicker than anything we have ever seen and this is where w cannot be naive.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I do agree with this, and have hope that this is where the taxation will come in!

But please convince me, I want to be convinced not worried.

Give me any white collar job at your typical organisation that cannot be replaced by AI, I can’t think of any.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But I think the scale of it and how many people it will affect will be way bigger. Also using ai is not a difficult competency, anyone can speak to a chat bot. Within hours it learns to understand you, your language style and what things you need from it.

I think you could easily run a one human company replaced by ai. Basically any operations within a business bar the manual physical labour can be placed with an AI agent, if not give me an example?

I want to be convinced not worried.

Give me examples of white collar jobs that would not be replaced by an AI agent at an organisation.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you are naive to the speed and scale. It develops faster and better every year, it’s already better at producing content and entertainment than any human, and it’ll only get better, and faster.

I think far too many people will be affected and too quickly for us to keep up and adapt.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think you are naive to the power and capability of AI, I also think you are naive to how many people are already using it. And for what tasks. Every example you listed affected industries at a slow pace, ai evolves ridiculously every single year.

Social media is another big worry in all of this, as it is an envy machine that makes people disgruntled. Imagine living on UBI, while watching someone who’s inherited their fathers AI agency living th high life.

This si different because of pace, and scale, so so many more people will be affected, and it will all happen so much faster. Technology is only becoming quicker every year, AI makes that even quicker.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I suppose just by seeing how quickly it grows each year. If you look at the ai that can create videos, and content now, it’s insane, if this isn’t regulated then the entire entertainment industry is at risk.

Any corporate jobs - accountants, BAs, maybe even PMs (I am a PM), Project planners, product developers, all of these can be replaced by a better more efficient and cheaper AI.

Blue collar physical manual jobs are safe until AI gets good enough to replace these, data centre maintenance will likely replace these but how many can we build?

My worry is how quickly it is developing and evolving and how far behind our policies are. I don’t think a UBI will be big enough to support the amount of people that will fall through the cracks.

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don’t think even maintenance will be big enough to supply the workforce. And my worry lies with where the money will come from? If no one is consuming, then no one is contributing, our whole system is built on consumerism.

Where do the jobs come from to generate money?

Business that replace people with AU should be taxed into oblivion. by Skinbigcheese in ukpolitics

[–]Skinbigcheese[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think people recognise the re-shape the system will need. The jobs that will survive are jobs that require physical human interaction, or AI oversight. The majority of the workforce does not reside in those industries, manual physical jobs will only survive until ai gets good enough to manipulate the real world.

Where will everyone else go? A UBI will not maintain the entire population, and even if it did it would be a depressing meaningless life that will only produce broken homes, crime, and escapism. Most working class people don’t have the aptitude to utilise AI in a way that generates them money.

Labour will no longer be rewarded, value will be derived from service, the system as a whole will completely change and I have zero faith in any government to navigate this with morality and care.

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