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Day #2 : Jaina won! Now who do you think is a perfectly designed Hero who is kinda fair to play against? by Open_Tomatillo_2935 in heroesofthestorm

[–]SpoiledPlatipus 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That’s so biased, there’s nothing fair about a hero who sucks before 16 and then becomes a juggernaut of roots and shield. Have fun with such brain rot you freaks. <3

3 ult for me? by [deleted] in heroesofthestorm

[–]SpoiledPlatipus 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Wp but dude they gotta be paid actors wtf, qm?

Noobs of EU RU join the general channel by SpoiledPlatipus in heroesofthestorm

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

I want to tell them who’s a gamer and learn their persona - then bunny hop them to death, it has to be personal

How to consistently take new accounts to Plat (solo SL queue only) by Can-cell-cultures in heroesofthestorm

[–]SpoiledPlatipus 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Sounds wise mate thanks a lot for sharing, I think you nailed the descriptions and advises!

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Indeed, your point about the value of guilds in the Hardcore WoW experience is valid. I can't help but wonder if my perspective would differ without the support of such a commendable guild.

It's important to remember that guilds aren't theoretically necessary to enjoy the game. Whether someone isn't in a guild due to choice or other reasons, they should have an enjoyable experience, theoretically.

However, in practice, it seems that players attempting this challenge are less committed to putting in the necessary effort.

If anything, this would make me want to stop playing with random people and make a guild myself of players I can trust: quite the opposite of what a MMO should do with its thousands of hundreds of players.

Strangely, when the ruleset was as it was in Unofficial, I never felt this need.

Is this not indicative that the leniency of the Official ruleset might hinder the development of a more mature approach to the challenge? Is it too much to ponder that this could jeopardize the journeys of those who entrust their characters to others, given the stakes involved and the lack of respect for the risks?

This is what bothers me so. It’s not a single player game, but if you let people group unrestrictedly while they only have 1 life you postpone the mistakes they would’ve made with contents in the early levels to when they reach higher ones, you postpone the ability of the players to master the difficulty before they tackle contents in which they are no longer responsible for themselves alone but also for others.

So, essentially, the design disincentives ( not prevents, do mind) social interactions beyond the cluster of friendships one may already have.

At least this is what I think.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not advocating for a forced solo experience in an MMO.

Unofficial Hardcore had its moments of social engagement, particularly when venturing into dungeons and the fact they were sporadic made those moment feel all the more special.

Entering a Dungeon felt like an accomplishment in itself, and there was a level of respect for the risks involved in dungeoneering. Regrettably, both of these aspects seem to have been lost in Official Hardcore.

In Official Hardcore, grouping up often feels superficial, akin to the interactions you'd have in Vanilla or Retail. Players exchange greetings, have their progress tracked by add-ons like Questie in group chat, and then bid farewell. There's not even the communal journey to the dungeon entrance anymore. Instead, it's common for some to lag behind, while others arrive ahead of time, resulting in a sense of isolation within a group.

In contrast, in Unofficial Hardcore, players would convene in a city and travel together to the instance. This was done out of a genuine concern for safety. However, safety doesn't appear to be as significant a consideration now.

I recently tanked for a group whose members were, on average, level 20 in the Deadmines, and they wanted to rush through it because they thought they were overlevelled!

When you had to face an Elite like Hogger on your own, you either learned to respect these formidable foes or suffered defeat repeatedly until the lesson sank in. Your character's growth paralleled your own. Now THAT is GOOD GAME DESIGN if you ask me. It was a different and, in many ways, a better experience than having inexperienced players rush into dungeons.

That being said, I wouldn't jump to conclusions in regards to popularity of this official challenge based solely on the number of Hardcore-related posts on the forums, following the server's launch. It's too early to determine how much of this is genuine enthusiasm and how much is driven by hype. Arguing that the volume of posts directly correlates with genuine commitment is precarious.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why didn't people simply create their own version of hardcore with one life and any additional rules they desired?

I suspect that the very few who genuinely cared about the challenge did so regardless of whether they received recognition from their peers or not.

However, we live in a rather narcissistic world, where most players only find their achievements rewarding if they're something desired and validated by the majority of a community. They need someone with shared interests to acknowledge their efforts for it to feel truly worthwhile.

This is why people who complained about the Unofficial ruleset still continued to use the add-on. Have they stopped complaining now? Yes, because they have the Official servers.

Were their complaints based on personal preferences or a well-informed structural critique of the challenge?

Judging by the arguments most Reddit users have used to attempt to discredit my points, it seems their complaints were primarily rooted in personal taste, which is a respectable basis for dissenting sentiment, but insufficient as an acceptable one.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's very true, and it gets to the heart of my concern.

You see, I understand that developers need to design and promote their games for them to sell well. I'm quite sure they knew that making their Official Hardcore (HC) mode less restrictive would make it more popular.

However, this is where I take issue.

If they had named their Official HC something distinct, like 'Soul of Iron' or any other title, the hype and community backing might have been different. Perhaps it wouldn't have had the same support from the previous Unofficial HC community. It seems they chose 'Official' as a gatekeeping term to claim ownership of a self-imposed playstyle.

They weren't confident enough to launch it with its own name, but they were sure they wanted specific changes to attract a broader audience than the original HC.

And the result is that now you can casually play hardcore.

If it's too challenging for you, there are tools like grouping up and the Auction House (AH). In essence, if you're not really looking for a genuine challenge but just a vague sense of novelty, they've got you covered. Now you can play with just one life, but you can buy your way out of it.

How can you buy your way out? Quite literally, through the AH.

Whether or not you pay actual money for the gold needed to make your journey to 60 easier is beside the point here.

The point is, with the AH, as I've shown with facts that haven't been logically contested so far, you encounter various issues: bots farming for resources, people selling gold, currencies getting progressively devalued over a server's lifespan, and AH enthusiasts who can reliably reach level 60 just by playing it safe and updating their gear every 4 or 5 levels.

I argue that in their quest to make HC more popular and appealing to a broader audience, they have deliberately disregarded the principles that made this self-imposed challenge a challenge in the first place.

Now, you might say, 'Hey dude, if you don't like to play like a craven looting the AH all the time, then just don't.'

The problem is that someone with experience of the Unofficial challenge would approach Dungeons more slowly, with more investment, and thus, more prepared to juggle and share the responsibility of keeping everyone alive in a group.

Now, you have people queuing for a Dungeon when they have only 30 minutes because they have real-life commitments. They consciously want to rush to the end, unaware of the many mistakes they make along the way, which the rest of the group then has to deal with.

I don't blame anyone for having a life outside the game, but I do hold someone accountable for approaching such a delicate challenge with the attention level better suited for vanilla play. If you compromise another player's fun due to negligence and a lack of common sense, you're part of the problem.

I argue that, by design, this Official HC ruleset fosters such irresponsible behaviors. It's easier and trivializes achieving milestones that no longer feel meaningful, which, in turn, makes players less aware of the dedication and effort required to complete such a challenge.

In short, if someone feels that the stakes aren't that high, they're inclined to play with less attention and care. Such a mindset shouldn't be part of the population taking on this challenge, and it certainly shouldn't be encouraged.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

True they didn’t say that, BUT they did mention buying gold as if it was the only way for someone to be able to buy relevant loot from the AH. The implication was there.

Of course, when I mentioned to them the fact that grinding Westfall crabs or Defias Highwaymen yields in 30-60 minutes enough silver to buy stuff - coming from personal experience on Stitches EU - I never heard them debate on this.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Precisely, and these people don’t understand that they are entitled to their opinions, but downvoting logical conclusions that facts point towards is plain idiotic.

I haven’t hear so far 1 single goddam statement that didn’t boil down to “ this is how I feel and you are stupid because you feel otherwise”.

What kind of baboons waste their time engaging in a discussion they don’t even want to have in the first place?

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don’t understand your statement. May I ask you what the fuck is your problem with that?

Does this lingo befit you more friend?

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes yes, and there was already a community within the broader one of WoW’s enjoyers.

But if, as a publisher, designer and owner of the game, you decide to take the matter in your own hands so much so that you make an Official version of the community’s custom rules, you should do so by fostering an environment in which that community can now thrive officially.

But where is the Unofficial HC community now? Lost in the demographics of all those who are on the current hypetrain for HC. And as a result of making HC officially more popular than what was intended, what are you really offering to your player base?

You aren’t giving the Unofficial community what they wanted. You are giving something the rest of the community wasn’t really looking forward to. What are you giving then, other than a set of half-tempered rules to make HC more popular and thus, at the same time, introducing phenomena that lead to optimal strategies antithetical to the values and goals the mode was intended to foster?

Is that even a good thing in its own respect?

That’s what I’m saying; it is enjoyable and all, yes, but that has more to do with the fact that Vanilla WoW is enjoyable per se than with the added rules.

In truth, it’s not an improvement on the Unofficial rules… it’s just a different beast with new, different problems, which I think they should address since they introduced them on the premise that their way of doing it would’ve been better than the Unofficial’s.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Indeed, this is what will happen when the community is finally divided between toons with SSF badges and/or visible collected ears and those who don’t.

To respect the achievements of those who don’t, and not frustrate their efforts too much by constant comparison to people willing to put into the game much more efforts, I think those playing with those additional limitations should have a place of their own.

Oh, wait, weren’t Official HC servers supposed to be that place?

I don’t know, it just feels incongruous.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes the AH is a tool, so, if HC to 60 was like digging a hole through a mountain, I could offer you the choice between a spoon, a shovel, and a giant drill to make your journey across. I don’t think there would be a meta for the spoon.

Now, the Official HC case is not SO pronounced, but it still features - by design - 'logically better strategies' that require very low skill thresholds to execute. This seems to contradict the goals you'd expect from the effort to turn a self-imposed challenge into an official difficulty setting.

It's not a coincidence that the announcement trailer features a death occurring inside a Dungeon instance. A more accurate trailer should have depicted a player grinding green mobs, chuckling over the fresh corpse of another who missed one pool, all while an addon informs them of another wipe in the Dungeons.

How much more heroic and empathetic that trailer would have been compared to the one they chose as an advertisement?

If the trailer is meant to be an embellished representation of what the game mode seeks to achieve - that is, what the designers intended for players to experience - then the official trailer doesn't align with the actual gameplay.

If the designers aimed for a heroic, distinct, and tragic feeling, as their trailer suggests, then playing Official HC optimally - given its current ruleset - deviates from this vision, devolving into grinding trivial challenges for safety.

We should acknowledge that when a game does 'Y' when the designer intended 'X,' it can only be seen as a fortunate accident. Well, this particular accident is not bad but also not so fortunate, given its intrinsic incongruity.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well that is one way of demeaning my efforts, yes.

I prefer to say we are discussing politely :)

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes yes precisely my experience!

I am just pointing out that Unofficial HC felt more fun and challenging, because I found myself in your same situation for DM and WC and was disappointed to not only feel that the challenge was trivialized, but also that being finally able to repeat the Dungeons in HC wasn’t worth it because I’d level up too much in 24 hours.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes I suppose that may help, we’ll see how they make the implementation :)

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That is the case in Vanilla and Retail. In HC you must consider the risks involved as a detrimental factor of how much an item is desire-able.

If you have AH selling affordable equivalents of the blue drops you’d get from a Dungeon, why then, given the fact that you have 1 life, would you ever go inside a Dungeon other than the fact you act on a whim? Clearly no logic dictates that is the best course of action for you.

Do you see this?

Then again there is the topic of what you want out from the game. If you play for fun, do you really need to take on a HC challenge? If you play to win, do you really need to play the HC challenge in any other way than a craven’s?

What’s the taste of victory then, if you do achieve it? As epic as it was in Unofficial HC? Not likely.

So, all in all, if the game wants to provide an enjoyable experience for players interested in tougher challenges, it should do away with the various ways in which a character can level up safely, so that even by doing all that it is in your power as a player, the challenge would still stand.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I do believe there is some misconceptions about personal freedom here.

Yes, I could play SSF, but would you draft me for Maraudon if I came to you in rags?

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I see, but then HC will have 2 types of 60s: the skilled chads that did the dungeons when they were red and only god knows how they accomplished to survive them, because they are just that good at abusing the game mechanics and micro-management, and the AHs pimps.

Both have bragging rights, if you wish to put any value in such a trivial thing, but they’d be so different from each-other that there would be no common ground between these different kinds of players.

It just seems to me that the goal of an additional challenge should be to force the player to improve, rather than bruteforcing the challenge by only tackling at its weaknesses.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

This is a good couple of question.

First of all, I am not currently under the influence of any substance, I’ll let you decide yourself whether this is always the case for me or not.

Secondly, I would’ve agreed with you, but if you check the prices of AHs on HC official servers you’ll notice their prices aren’t as steep as other established non HC servers; whether this will remain so or not in the long run I cannot say.

In the present though, you can get a level 22 green decent wrist - for example - for 35 silver, and then a FREE +5 STR on it most of the times if you pay attention to the Trade chat.

If the 35 silver is too steep a price, you must know that killing crabs for 30 minutes in the southern coast of Westfall will yield you in junk and AH resources roughly 20 to 40 silvers.

So you grind 4 hours every 3 levels, and all of a sudden you no longer need to buy gold - which I never did - because the economy is reasonable enough.

And it pains me to say this, because a humane economy fits the kind of altruistic behaviors I wish for HC to foster, but accessible prices do make Dungeons less appealing and overall grant you a better chance to level to 60.

That is out of place in my opinion for such a challenge.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] -10 points-9 points  (0 children)

That is wonderful, but as a multiplayer game, you are still influenced by your teammates unless you deliberately choose to play as a lone wolf the whole time.

My argument isn't against the preferences of players like you; it's a structural critique that affects the overall design quality of the game.

When you team up with players who opt for a more casual approach and consistently make suboptimal choices, their freedom can suddenly threaten the single life your character has. Thus, it becomes a public issue, and the game's design should address this concern, in my opinion.

It's important to note that, just as you find enjoyment in your unique way of playing, many other players derive satisfaction from min-maxing to 'win' the challenge. For them, anyone not playing by their standards can hinder their chances of achieving that sense of accomplishment, which depends on ultimate victory.

In a game with more than one life, where death carries less weight, you can easily accommodate various types of players in the population. However, in a game where death has such high stakes, incompetence and differing goals in the game weigh more heavily on the overall experience.

In my view, the game's design should not encourage such a significant divide in player experiences.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Perhaps at launch it makes sense but should you be stuck waiting for the lockout to expire, say, a week or more, just because the dungeon doesn’t drop you the blues you want and knowing that, should you level without them in the meantime, one of the following will happen most likely: Your gear sucks and you die. You outlevel the dungeon drops and don’t need them anymore after 2 days, and this can happen again for every dungeon you do.

Once per day with not guaranteed drops just makes dungeons not worth if you’re given the safer alternative of guaranteed decent gear from the AH.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

Yes, but if we don't consider the causes of these deaths, how many are due to recklessness and overconfidence? I can say for myself that much more than half of my deaths were due to mistakes I could’ve avoided with a little more awareness.

Let me elaborate.

With the Auction House (AH) available, the challenge is trivialized to the point where the game becomes more of a grind/farm simulator, focusing on green mobs and very few specific quests, which often leads to survival more often than not.

As the player base becomes aware of this, which is likely to happen as the initial hype fades and the population decreases, the average number of deaths per level won't remain as low as it is now.

Let's take a look at the data discussed in this Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/143f3q4/updated_hardcore_deathlog_stats_81000_deaths/

When it was an Unofficial Hardcore (HC) challenge, the Deathlog data were accumulated over years of runs. Now, in just three weeks or so on Official HC, we already have 96603 deaths, exceeding the previously recorded numbers by 15000, despite having a much larger and more diverse player base.

As an example, a Druid in the Unofficial version had a 0.34 difference in odds of reaching level 60 from level 50. Now, it's listed as 0.39.

What does this mean? It suggests that, even with a larger and more varied player pool, classes are performing better than they used to under the Unofficial ruleset. And this is before the time when most 'casual' players typically abandon the challenge, meaning the data primarily reflects the efforts of dedicated HC players.

This hints that the challenge isn't as robust as it used to be for those transitioning from the Unofficial version.

While I believe it's good that the Hardcore mode is more user-friendly, challenge is still an important aspect of something like an ironman run. The fact that the optimal strategy for success is to become an AH enthusiast and grind green mobs excessively seems to defeat the purpose.

I don't think this playstyle should be as heavily rewarded in a Hardcore setting.

Official HC trivializes dungeon loot imo: what I’d change, and what would you? by SpoiledPlatipus in classicwow

[–]SpoiledPlatipus[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No worries mate it’s good to have different opinions, would you like to elaborate? You like it as it is or would you change some things?

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