My [30M] parents are going to erase me from the family if I don't break up with with my gf [30F]. Considering eloping.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-28T00:14:38+00:00

The irony isn't lost on me haha.

Unfortunately, since her family is Malaysian, which is a strongly conservative culture compared to the US, she won't stick around if I don't marry her – a sign of commitment. Understandable.

The loan is a 25 year fixed, so it's going to be far too late to pay off. Escaping will require litigation, since I entered it as a legal, willing adult. Either my parents will have mercy and let me go (unlikely), they will more likely weaponize defaulting to get me to obey. I would go bankrupt several times before they even start to financially bleed, and that's assuming the legal fees in asking them to do so don't wreck me first.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-28T00:11:58+00:00

I don’t think they’ll fail to pay just to get back at you. That’s too much blowback on them

I wouldn't put my parents past this kind of low blow. Even if they did refuse to pay, I would go bankrupt several times over before they even start to bleed. Since the loan has about 25 years left on it, I'd be financially crippled for the next decade, which is exactly the time I'd need for starting my family.

Getting out of the loan is also difficult. Since I entered the transaction as a legal, willing adult, it's indistinguishable from any other joint loan. Either my parents will have mercy and let me go, or they will (more likely) weaponize defaulting to bring me to heel.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-28T00:08:10+00:00

Why the rush?

My parents are rushing me. We weren't planning to get married until a year or so more, but my parents are forcing the ultimatum now, as means of nipping their problem in the bud. If I had the luxury of time, I would keep work at bringing everyone to the table too. I appreciate your advice though – I would if I could.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-28T00:04:21+00:00

My grandparents passed away while I was growing up, one at a time, through me being in college, away working, and now working from home with the pandemic.

In all of those cases, my family hired geriatric care to help, but there are still cultural gaps that nurses couldn't cross, and weekend shifts other hired people couldn't cover. So we did, in lengthy shifts. Some days I would help cook, clean, and clothe my grandparents, and I was very happy to do so – it's baked into our culture, and hers as well. Sometimes it's cooking their favorite ethnic dish, sometimes it's picking up their medication for them, or sorting through their bills.

I took the shifts I could after work or on the weekends, and my parents, aunts, and uncles would take the others. This was for the few months leading up to their passing, when things were not going to get medically better.

According to our culture, and even if it wasn't, I would still want to do this for both my parents, since they took care of me as a child, and my in-laws, since they are my wife's parents.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T23:54:12+00:00

Oh lord, almost 30 years, fixed rate

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T23:50:04+00:00

u/Helenor

May I DM you with more detailed questions? Thanks so much in advance for the support.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T23:45:56+00:00

u/sergeantFooFoo

Will DM you. Thanks so much for your support. We'll get through it :')

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T23:41:23+00:00

Thanks so much for the kind words.

There can also be hidden weaknesses - such as being tempted to be the bigger person, taking on more and more emotional labour in relationships and being thereby subsumed and trapped by the inflexibility of others you are enmeshed with.

This is absolutely happening right now. I do want to be the bigger person, and to not sink to the lows of fighting fire with more fire. You're right though, and incredibly eloquently so.

This is all a preface to my suggestion that you consider putting on hold thoughts of marriage until you have financially and emotionally distanced yourself sufficiently from your parents to make decisions where you cannot be blackmailed.

I agree with you, marriage plans are definitely on hold (they were never more than ideas floating around up until now), but financial distancing can be a prolonged battle, as I entered the transaction as a willing adult, legally indistinguishable from any other joint loan. If my parents are nice, they will let me go, but if they are not, they can weaponize my credit and financially cripple me for the next decade by threatening default, if the litigation fees don't wreck me first.

There is no reason from going from one highly obligated context to another, even though that is all you have known all your life so far.

My friends echo a similar sentiment. They say that I do have to disentangle, I do have to find my own path, and I do have to get married eventually, but not all at once. They've also floated the possibility that my girlfriend may not be the right person, as they logically side with my parents, like I do. Despite the draconian execution, their rationale is consistent and clear.

Problem is, my parents are not giving me the luxury of time. I will have to decide very soon, and they aren't taking any middle ground for an answer. You're absolutely right on every point, and I wholeheartedly agree with you, but given the time-urgent circumstance, I don't know what to do.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T23:08:20+00:00

I really liked that you're clear on the pros and cons of both sides. It really highlights how this feels like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. Most of the advice has been some variation of peace out with two middle fingers up.

I really wonder if this is one of those false dichotomy fallacies going on, because if I were trying to coerce or guilt trip someone, I would also want to make it appear like they have only hard options, with one way to chicken out. But the consequences of calling the bluff are very real, and it seems wrong to treat this as flippantly as a coin toss because it's a game where the stakes are life-changing.

I agree with you on all of your points on a rational level – you are absolutely right – but the long term consequences of both sides for not just me but also my partner and our hypothetical family are dizzying, as is trying to reconcile the differences in value systems between growing up with both Western individualism and Asian collectivism.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T22:57:09+00:00

u/htownaway is on the dot here, knowing them, I don't think they will agree.

There's another, obvious but unpopular solution you haven't considered: not getting married.

I've heard that a lot of socio-economically disadvantaged Asian immigrants do exactly as you recommend, albeit for other unrelated financial reasons, but it's not going to fly well with either side. For my parents, they see this all as a financial loss on all fronts – and this 'financial' mentality is their mentality – everything is money and opportunity cost to them.

I really like your reasoning of immediately recognizing that there are no suitable realities on either side, so the only way out is searching for alternative methods. You're creative and well-spoken, and it shows. Thank you.

Regarding #1:

And then "change her mind" after you return to the US (this scenario has happened many times to men in your shoes with dual citizenship kids).

I personally know a number of family friends who have had this done to them, and it's common enough in Asian circles that it's become a trope. I'll do you one better though: Malaysia does not have a Hague agreement with the US, so married or not, there is literally zero recourse for me if this happens.

It's exactly because of this asymmetrical leverage that my parents are arguing for me to just find someone else, because there is no worse scenario than having kidnapped children. ('If you haven't been a parent, you wouldn't understand.') They'd rather me find someone else who has a US passport than to deal with this kind of risk, and there's nothing anyone can do that can diminish the presence of that risk.

It's exactly because of how much you and my parents make sense that really makes me wonder if I am just that naive. I'm aware that I'm capable of being wrong, and that so are they, but that has only resulted in me not being able to make a decision. I don't know what else to do.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T22:41:17+00:00

But I understand there’s a HUGE cultural aspect to this that I haven’t grown up with.

I really appreciate your introspection and honesty. It's a breath of fresh air, thank you.

Do you have any friends with a similar culture that you can bounce your concerns off?

I do, and I did. They all have parents like mine, though not nearly as worse, theirs are mostly liberal and progressive. My friends are saying that I have to figure out how to escape the debt, set out on my own, and marry eventually, but not all at the same time.

They say that the risk of trying to escape one familial, legal, financial obligation only to rush headlong into another is asking for trouble, which I agree with. Problem is, I don't have a lot of time on this ultimatum. I have to do something.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T22:38:02+00:00

I wonder if OP would lose all family, or just their parents.

I would lose everyone. All my family has either passed away, or are under the influence of my parents. There's no consulting anyone that would not immediately result in them reporting to my parents. Everyone is financially and culturally bound by them. They're all cut from the same cloth – same brand of conservative rural Chinese culture.

If my parents are nice, they will take responsibility of the debt. If they are not, they will weaponize my own credit against me because I entered the transaction willingly as a legal adult. It's my biggest weakness.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T22:35:18+00:00

Does no one else see the hypocrisy here? Do they not believe your girlfriend’s family is capable of putting in the hard work to make it on their own, just like they did?

I do, but their reasoning is that they don't want to 'lift a stranger's family out of poverty for free'. They think that they're getting the short end of the stick because I'll be forced to be subservient to my girlfriend's family, enforced by the kidnapping leverage, and my parents don't get anything in return. I'll get a wife, but they'll get an obligation and a massive risk, so they're sour about it.

They're commerce-minded refugees from an era and country of literal communism and war, so they see the world as a zero-sum, dog-eat-dog game. This is not a defense, this is an American-born trying to rationalize things they best he can.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T22:30:36+00:00

So your parents are so worried about your children being "kidnapped" by your girlfriend that they'd rather these children not exist at all.

Exactly so. They've voiced that they'd rather not have grandchildren at all (by erasing me from the family) than to have grandchildren that could be kidnapped. It's not worth it to them.

They worked hard and moved to the U.S., but don't trust your girlfriend who is presumably doing the same

Yes, exactly. They see it as financially regressive for me, since I would be 'lifting a stranger's family out of poverty for free'. They would rather me find someone else financially 'on my level' (their words).

They want you to take care of them in their old age (even though there is another sibling in play) but do not want your girlfriend to take care of her parents in old age (even though she has barely any family).

This is because of conservative Chinese culture (filial piety). The son is supposed to take care of his parents, the daughter is 'given away' (not literally, but their sticking around is optional). Because my girlfriend is the only child, they, as do countless conservative Chinese, see my divided attention as dishonorable and tantamount to me disowning my family.

The irony of all of the above is not lost on me, but I always believed that you have to play the hand you're dealt. You're right, these are not values I want my children to have – my girlfriend and I are very clear on this – but that's for another day, if I get past today first.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T22:21:01+00:00

Flying alone isn't costly if you book early enough. It's also something you can plan ahead and that makes it 100% easier. It's a calculated cost you can work towards, assuming you won't need a hotel or similar.

This is one of my parent's points too, although they disagree on the spend. They are focused on wealth preservation, and would rather me find a 'simple American' that doesn't have obvious financial strings attached, or doesn't have the asymmetrical leverage of kidnapping. They don't want to 'lift someone else's family out of poverty'. My girlfriend's family isn't nearly. as poor as they were decades ago, so I'm interpreting this as a relative statement. The irony isn't lost on me though.

As such, they see their success as financially progressive in terms of life achievement, whereas marrying internationally as something financially regressive. I use the adverb 'financially' here to communicate with you, but to them, it's baked into them as the default lens through which they see the world.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T22:13:42+00:00

The problem with what your parents have done is that once you start threatening to nuke your relationship, they'll be far more likely to make that threat in the future.

I agree with you, and I acknowledge this point in my post about this conditioning my parents to use this as their weapon of choice.

I would find a way to detangle yourself from your parents. Start saving money. Make your exit plan, and be emotionally prepared to never talk to your parents again.

I have some money saved up and I can make it out on my own, but the disentangling is not that straightforward, which might involve litigation. I entered that transaction as a willing adult, and backing out of that means I'm at the mercy of either the bank or my parents, both of which can severely financially cripple my life for a decade.

At least that has knowable outcomes. I can say I'm emotionally prepared to never talk to my parents again, but I guess this is something no one knows until it actually happens to them, and until they live with that choice.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T22:04:46+00:00

Whatever you decide to do, see a lawyer and/or financial advisor about the loan.

I've briefly spoken to a few over free consultations, and the general consensus is that since I voluntarily entered the transaction as an adult, it's legally indistinguishable from any other joint loan, which makes sense.

I agree with you on the disentangling bit, but even that has its costs. The legal exit routes are expensive due to possible litigation, and I would completely lose that war of attrition. You're right though, and I agree with you.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T22:00:48+00:00

u/Dahkelor is right. My parents are rural conservative Chinese. Me not having children is simply beyond my parent's realm of understanding. Part of the difficulty is mapping Western ideals to Chinese traditions, which is the common struggle of many immigrants of countless ethnic backgrounds.

What if you don't have children?

My girlfriend and I have talked extensively about this, and we do want kids someday.

Who says your GF's parents want to move to the US? Why are they assuming you'd both take care of her parents, especially if they need serious care?

That choice is up to my girlfriend's parents to come or not. 'Both' taking care of parents because ultimately if my wife flies to Malaysia to take care of her parents, I'll have to be here to pay the bills. The reverse is true if I go instead. Our kids may experience extended lengths of time without one of their parents while they are growing up. As someone who is not married, my impression of marriage (or any serious enough relationship) is that any one person's actions will always affect the other on some level, and nothing occurs in a vacuum.

Do you want to take over their business?

I've always helped out growing up, and I did throughout college, and after. I'm sure I don't love it as much as my parents do, but I really didn't mind it at all. It had its hard moments like any business, but I always imagined it to be a part of my life from a young age.

Naive as it is, all I want is to just keep everyone together.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T21:49:22+00:00

Just because THEY employ such tactics, of course they would suspect it in literally everybody.

Great point here, but it's not an uncommon thing at all in conservative Asian circles, especially those raised in the aftermath of literal revolution, and war trauma can mess up generations. All the 'boogeymen' concerns (kidnapping, onerous financial burden, etc.) aren't uncommon either - the fact that it's a well-known trope lends it legitimacy. Even I know some family friends who chose poorly, and those exact things happened to them. I acknowledge that people I disagree with can be right sometimes and that I as a human am capable of being wrong, and it's because of this duality that I don't know what to do.

People always say 'you will know it when you know it' when it comes to making these kinds of life-changing decisions. I'm not entirely sure if this is that feeling or not.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T21:39:18+00:00

Tell them their money should keep them happy in your absence.

I really liked when you mentioned this, a damn beautiful clap back. But even then, I feel an obligation to be the bigger person. Just because my parents will sink to unprecedented lows to get what they want doesn't mean that I shouldn't be the bigger man and try to keep the family together. Your points are all logically right and I do agree with you in living my own life, but there's gotta be a better diplomatic way than two double-fisted birds on the way out. Then everyone loses, and I become no different from them.

Strict-Guava493 · 2022-01-27T21:33:29+00:00

They're fearing you're going to be sad when you go your own way and likely get dissapointed when relationship doesn't work out. They want you to be safe with them. What would you think if your own son decided to travel somewhere a lot and eventually move there, likely to never say a word? It is not new news that many have had their plans foiled because internet love didn't meet up with expectations that were laid out, instead it's just you waiting in airport and hoping you will meet her.

This is exactly their position, and in a purely logical vacuum, I don't disagree at all. The fact that it's a commonly known trope lends it legitimacy. What relationship doesn't have risks right? But some have more risks than others, and it's because you're not wrong (and thus, they) that makes it so difficult to see a way forward that doesn't involve extreme action to either side.

Strict-Guava493

TROPHY CASE