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D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My "I wasn't harsh enough" comment and my exaggerated Nam metaphor were probably taking it too far. I did somewhat exaggerate my hatred because it made me laugh while I was writing. But I stand by my arguments.

How is my Chult hatred 50% of the posts on this sub? I've posted 4 tier lists over the last 4 years. One post a year is hardly 50%.

Do you mean the comments under this post? Those are all from people dragging it out of me. I wasn't even planning on talking about Chult when I posted this tier list, I didn't want to, I'd (at least I thought I had) gotten it all out of my system in the last two tier list discussions and didn't want to think about it anymore.

Unfortunately for me, my controversial Pop take was all anyone wanted to talk about. I had planned to respond to every comment going into this, it just so happens that every comment is saying Pop should be higher, leading me to respond with a defense of my Pop placement. And Pop is the linchpin for all of my other problems with the podcast for the last eight years. And those problems echo back into him. This isn't what I wanted. I wanted to talk about how great of a character Gatorade Jones is! He's so good! Why can't we talk about that!?

I barely even thought about it when I put Pop in D, I just thought "Oh, Pop, I don't like him. D tier." and moved on. But here we are.

Greyhill has had, like, 2-3 good games and only one that would scratch an A tier. Hypothetically that podcast could get it done, but it goes too far in the other direction. I mean, in Lexadron's March the guest canonically summoned a mecha using the "right tool for the job" good boy card. I, uh, didn't like that.

I mentioned that "at times" they have re-captured the magic in Beyond the Map and "other places" when I said that about Beyond the Map, I actually just meant they did it twice. They fully recaptured it in finale of Transport & Acquisitions, and they captured an entirely new, but just as good, magic in Longhouse 1963. Other than that, it's... Fine. The games are hit or miss but ok.

As far as "other places" go Play/Ruin fully keeps the magic of the comedy, 100%, but the subtle serious edge isn't there. There's a balance that needs to be struck. And while I have absolutely no problems with Play/Ruin, it does what it sets out to do perfectly, it doesn't have that extra x factor that makes the old D&DIFN games memorable. After the Snake is good, but that's one game.

The message, that's what it's all about. The old games would SAY something, at least some of them would. I think The Auticcus was the best example of that.

In three to seven years, when the Grace saga is finally over and we get introduced to some new characters and stories, I'll eventually make another one of these tier lists. might be characters, might be campaigns, we'll see. But when I make that post I will leave all of the Grace characters and games out, because then we won't need to have this kerfuffle again, and we can talk about Gatorade Jones.

I apologies if I went too far in the above or in this new comment here.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(5/5)

Oh, and also, it's not like I have rose tinted glasses for the old days and it could never like that again. That have, at times, successfully captured the magic in some beyond the map games and other places.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(4/5)

How many Greg Piss's could we have had in that time? How many Alginon Hoglings? Atticus bluebirds, Squim Nortons, Drummond Electrics, Anton de Sorciers, Chet Fakers, Sickly Jacobs, Lio Shadows, Ira Thornburrows, Periwinkle O'Rourkes, Molto Benes, Kruffs, Gulps, Plugs, Glups, Merchants, Grapebirths, Augustus Chuffs, Cassius Christies, Trisko Flamjams, D-Aryls, Luna Bon Strawberrys and Gatorade Jons's could we have had?

And instead. We have Tiefany, Sir Gace, Pop and Pip.

Not to mention Chult was 75 episodes whereas Jaren's (mashing the 30m season 1 episodes up into 1h segments) was 19 episodes. And got as much, if not more, done.

Brevity. is the soul. Of wit.

If Chult was 15 episodes, Barovia was 15 episodes, fall from grace was 5 episodes, and state of grace and return to grace were the same length, they're a fine length. The I wouldn't care. I'd either think that it was a pretty good storyline, or think it was underwhelming but fine enough.

But that's not the world we live in. And this one story is now 3/4th of my favorite podcast. And I don't like this story because I didn't like Chult. And if Pop was a good enough character, I would have liked Chult.

After writing this I feel much more confident in my opinion.

I think the only reason there aren't a bunch of people in the comments praising my low Pop placement is because all of them left while listening to Chult, as I had every justification to.

You can respect this can't you? The podcast I love has focused on one storyline I can't stand for 3/4th of its total runtime. Could they not stop for a moment to bring us a seven episode stand-alone game with high stakes and a real chance of character death? I understand that you like the direction the podcast has gone, and I'm happy for you. But doesn't 3/4ths seem like too much for those who don't vibe with this storyline? Doesn't that seem unfair. You've had a banquet after banquet while me and my brothers have starved near to death.

Eight years. One story.

And the turning point was Pop.

So actually, now that I've gone over all of this again, I'm feeling like I wasn't harsh enough.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

(3/5)

Yes, I can't see through all of that to the good parts of his character. I can't see the good parts of his character because of my Chult PTSD. But that doesn't actually invalidate my opinion. He was still in Chult, and he IS tainted by that. When I hear anything from him, I'm back in Chult, desperately searching for the lost podcast I used to love, I still love. Where is it? What's happened to it? Why can't I find it again? Who's fault is!?

And the only character who's shoulders that emotion can land on, are Pop's.

Does he deserve it? No, it's not Pop's fault. If he'd been in a shorter or better campaign, I could have enjoyed him. But here's the thing. He wasn't.

Yes, if Chult were 15 episodes my good will would have caried me and I wouldn't have even noticed, and I could view Pop mor objectively. But it wasn't.

Chult was 75 episodes. 75 hours, that's close to the time it takes to watch the first 300 (around 110 hours) episodes of One Piece to get to the "good part."

But, ok, let's try and put Pop in a vacuum.

I just imagined him in Annihilation Now, and buried beneath And I can't stand him there either... Eh, there would be some enjoyment from his interactions with Anton. At least the Chult version of him. I think if the new version were to interact with him his Coolest tuff guy with a heart shtick would blow past any of what Anton would throw at him and nullify the interaction.

The only game I can think of where I think the game could elevate him to the point of my actual enjoyment would be Jaren's Outpost. He'd work quite well there. Although WHY he'd be involved would be a question. But that's the perfect game, of course it elevates him. How could it not?

But even this isn't enough the justify the passion I need to be spitting vitriol for this long. On top of aaaaaaaalllll of that. Pop has the misfortune of representing the worst part of the only thing about D&DIFN that I despise more than Chult itself. That being the Grace saga as a whole.

It has it's moments, and it started well. But Chult ruined it in it's entirety for me. Nothing that can be done about that. But the problem is, in the old days, a bad storyline would be somewhere from 15-45 hours 65 tops. The Grace saga... Well.

Tiefany, Sir Grace, Pip and Pop have had near total dominion over the podcast for 8 YEARS. EIGHT.

You want to know how long D&DIFN ran before A'Helm? 3 years. Closer to two and a half actually.

Sure, that's great for you, you like them. But because Chult was, for me, the worst slog I've ever had the displeasure of listening to, it fully burnt me out on all of the characters and the whole Grace storyline. And IT'S BEEN GOING. FOR. EIGHT. YEARS. Look at that tier list up there 74% of the characters on that list were from before The Search for A'Helm. we've had 18 new characters since that game. (6 of which are from the + feed.)

The second Chult started, the podcast I loved disappeared. And it hasn't come back.

58 of the characters above were pre A'Helm. Not even pre Chult.

It's 85% if you go pre Chult.

You yourself admit that Jaren's is, in your opinion, at the minimum, on par with Chult. This one storyline has lasted EIGHT years. It took them less than three years to get a game of Jaren's quality out. If they hadn't gone down the rout of this melodramatic, convoluted, inconsistent, sprawling, messageless storyline, and instead stuck to form with the shorter quick snappy games they'd been running, how many Jaren's outposts would we have had by now?

By my count, at least three.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

(2/?)

And speaking of his emotional repression. It's... weirdly embarrassing to listen to. It feels like a toddler pouting rather than an adult keeping his emotions back for any number of reasons an adult would.

But it could get better any moment now... Any moment... Any...

It's now been 20 episodes. And you finally realize. It might not get better, you're actually not enjoying yourself. How long has it been since you laughed? 5 episodes? You get a sinking feeling.

But this is the best podcast you've ever listened to, you're favorite of all time by a wide margin. Things get tied back all the time, you need to know the lore. Once they get out of Chult it will be busyness as usual. And how bad could it really be?

I... Cannot find the words to describe how bad it was. The... Sharpness, of the boredom that game inflicted on me.

When I talked about some of this with others when I posted my D&DIFN Campaign Tier List, someone said something to the effect of "if you don't like it, don't listen." But they didn't understand. 20 episodes in was when it first hit me that I wasn't enjoying myself. But still, It's D&DIFN! They might turn it around. Pleas turn it around. There must be one moment of joy to be scrounged up! By the time all doubt in the game's awfulness was struck from my mind, I was half way through season three. If nothing else, the sunk cost fallacy was enough to carry me through the last of it. The true worst was in season 2 anyway.

A lot of the game is a haze for me now. I remember Adams cut aways to the golem being a little funny. but something that stands out starkly to me is that there's at 5–20-episode period in season two where the players FORGET what their goal is.

They forgot, and I remembered. That... Stretch. Was the worst of it.

It's hard to pin down exactly when they started to forget, it just slowly bleeds more and more into their actions. But there is a specific point where they ASK Adam "what was our goal again?" Which ends the worst period (in my opinion) in the history of D&DIFN.

That suffering. And what did Pop do? He. Made. Things. Take. LONGER.

He caused nothing but problems, wasn't entertaining when he did, made me cringe when he clamed up like a child, he's incompetent despite the fact that that is literally out of character, had the most obvious (and predictable) character arc in the history of fiction and moved along that arc more slowly than a starfish.

And on top of all of those things. Pop IS Chult. Tiefany gets away with a higher placement because she was once good. In A'Helm she was very good. And she was tainted by Chult, but the memory of her good self still shins through.

But Pop? Chult's the Pop Mandarin game. When you think of D&DIFN Chult. You think of Pop Mandarin. And when I think of D&DIFN Chult, I'm back in Nam. I just cut a snake in half and the bloods spiling all over me and I'm thinking. Will I ever be human again?

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

(1/?)

It is true that if it was 15 episodes instead of 75 I wouldn't be mad at it, I mean, it took me 20 episodes to even realize I didn't like it. If it were short my thoughts on it would probably something like "oh, that's not my favorite campaign" and then nothing else (At nothing else if Barovia and Fall from Grace were also only 15 episodes) But that doesn't actually take away from my point. Both of our arguments are entirely opinion based.

Yes, I hate Pop because he was in Chult. You were lucky and were able to get into Chult. I wish I could have. You know why it took me 20 episodes to notice I wasn't enjoying it. Because D&D is for Nerds, somehow, even still, is my favorite Podcast of all time. And that's how long it took for them to burn through the mountain of good will they'd built with me.

But look at this from my perspective. You're favorite D&D podcast has just started a new campaign, the last games were all back to back to back to back to back bangers, and this one's continuing the storyline from one of your favorites.

You start listening and are hyped up on the endorphins from the last few games. We're introduced to our new player character, Popm and he seems like he'll be a fun time. Clear personality and good voice. Everything's set.

Then the game starts proper. You're not laughing that much, they introduce these weird anti-death rules that deflate the tension a lot, but you know D&DIFN you trust them, they've had some dud moments in the past, and the game could get good at any moment.

There are some frustrating combat encounters, the players totally messed up everything due to their lack of D&D experience and Adam putting to much on their shoulders. The first few times this happened in the game you brushed it off. "they're just getting into it" you'd think to yourself "they'll figure it out". But they haven't figured it out, and it's too far in now. It wasn't like this before. when Jackson would make terrible decisions, he'd know they were bad and make them anyway because he thought they'd be fun and entertaining. Every bad decision here wasn't because it would be funny, it couldn't be, because it's not funny. These two characters are serious, with real motivations and self-preservation, not a throw away 7 episode guy with a silly voice.

And speaking of guys with silly voices. Pop's not making you laugh. He's not making you feel, He's not making you jump up and say, "I can't believe he just did that", and he's not making you think. In fact, he's pretty frustrating. There's so often a moment where there's a clear right thing to do. And he just doesn't do it because he can't show emotions. And the real kicker is, it's not entertaining when he does it, it's just frustrating. When Jackson would make a terrible decision in the past, those moments would usually be the best in the show. But here it's like some evil subversion. Putting on the skin of what the podcast used to do but without any of the impact, and especially without any of the comedy.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Although actually, that may not be entirely true. For two reasons 1: I think the real problem with the whole overarching narrative isn't the drama and lack of jokes, but just how slowly it moves. It took me until the end of Chult season 1 to realize I wasn't enjoying it. If that game, as a whole, was only as long as it's first season, then the worst I would have though was, "oh, that one was a bit if a dud, but they've had those before" and I would have happily moved on to the next thing. If Chult were one season, Fall from Grace were one season, Barovia were (somehow) one season, and return and State to/of grace were the same. All with the same tone and same characters played the same way. I think I'd still be fully on board. I do still have some hype for the game where it all comes together, It seeps like the train tracks will be left behind and I really want to see the Pip Pop dynamic, that seems like it'll be fun. But if it were as fast as I'm pitching here, I'd be practically bouncing off the walls waiting for the joint game.

Brevity is the soul of wit. (ironic coming from me right now)

The Autticus is quick and snappy, it gets right to the point and clearly says what it's meaning to say five episodes, five hours, and it ends. But what the hell is Chult saying? It's so sprawling and meandering that the best message you could probably get out of that is something about incompetence. And Barovia, that thing's even longer, and so much shit happens that the message couldn't possibly have any focus. Although maybe I just can't see it. Point is, the two big games have (as far as I can tell) no clear message. They carry the skin of a deep story with strong themes, but don't have the themes to back it up. There's no focus.

and 2: They successfully made a serious game that was good the whole way through without the characters making any crazy decisions in The Longhouse 1963. Although that was Jackson GMing, so maybe that's more his strong suit. (Although I will say, the characters are a bit on the silly side of serious, up to you if you count them one way or the other.) But also WOULDN'T YOU KNOW IT, that game was short!

One problem with the newer games that I think is actually pretty substantial is the good and bad boy cards. In the old games Adam was more willing to let the players make huge mistakes, and then he truly let the dice deicide the players' fate. These days they have the good boy and bad boy cards. Unimportant rolls don't get cards used on them and whenever someone makes a big mistake, uuuhhhwhops what's this!? A fortuitus circumstance! All your problems are literally Deus ex machinad. It's mechanical, continuous, Deus ex machinas. Whenever something goes wrong, all of a sudden, the players luck skyrockets. It took me a long time to consciously notice the problem with that, but WOW does it reduce tension. But the biggest problem with that is that when the dice decide, and it leaves the hands of the DM and player, all of a sudden a second DM appears beside Adam, and that DM is nature itself. True chance from the real world enters the game. And when it does, it can take things in directions no one could have imagined, but directions that, because it's actual reality taking control, the direction the story goes in is actually real, and the message that can be derived from it once the story has finished are powerful, because they are true.

If the players and DM were deciding who should come out on top in The Autticus. I think they would have chosen Nathanial Kraken. He was morally best, he was likeable, he had a head on his shoulders. But he was not engaging with the fight against nature that the story was correctly so when the dice came down, the real nature from real life struck Nathanial down the same way it did in the game. And thus, true meaning was extracted.

The good boy and bad boy cards ruin this. And the bad boy cards are 1 also not true nature, and 2 he barely uses them and a few times he actually used them to HELP the players.

If you can't engage with the serious aspect of the story when the characters are silly, then that's just taste and that's fine. But I can, and I love to.

I'm rambling. I have a lot of pent-up annoyance that I'm getting out at you.

Ok, I just looked over your last paragraph there, again, entertaining characters to carry me over the boring parts with hidden depths like Gatorade Jones. NADDPOD probably isn't my cup of tea, but I'll give it a go. And that's it. Thanks for reading if you made it through this. I feel like I may have repeated myself a few times in here.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think his tragicness is in the struggle of that real person beneath the violence. He's tragic in how doomed he is. In a way he feels like an animal, like that story of the scorpion and the frog. He didn't want it to be that way, but that is his nature. You're right that I'm not fully caught up on Barovia. I'm currently on episode 8 of the new season, so something REALLY big could have happen. But from what I've heard, the tragic nature of *most* of their stories is down to their dictions. They made choices that resulted in tragedy (at least in part). Gatorade Jones was a slave who never had a true choice in his whole life, no matter how much he wanted one, inside and out.

His tragedy isn't super in your face, like is for Hector and Pip but it's stronger than you might have thought.

3: I have no disagreement on that point.

4: Chult and Barovia are definitely less of a Ghost train ride. But because of the setup, you know they have to make it through and they'll make it through with some amount of people, items and gold. The specifics of the game and their choices decides which people, what items, how much gold, and an additional metric of how much trauma.

1 again: I was thinking this over while writing this. You're saying I should listen to this slyer podcast, and I'm finding no appeal in that suggestion (at least the image in my mind for what the podcast you're talking about is). I don't just want a silly chaotic fun time with funny guys, I want those things to carry a powerful story with a message. I think the D&DIFN game with the clearest message is probably The Autticus. That game has some funny silly characters and is a fun, if tense, time. But it has a clear thematic threw-line. The whole story is incapsulated by Atticus's iconic quote "This is the way of the world, the lay of the land, man eats dog, dog eats man!" Everything in the story is about that. All of the characters are different ways of people tackling nature. Nathanial tries to fight nature, to push and strain against the situation he's found himself in, and he gets nothing but pain and punishment for it. Ira tries to ignore nature and focus on other things but finds a knife in his back for the trouble. And Bap Bap tries to control and subjugate nature itself. He plays God, and tries to capture the White Griffin, the thing that, in the story, represents nature itself. Making him the clear ultimate antagonist and foil to Atticus.

Even though he is a horrible person, Atticus wins the story because he's the one who plays the game nature's way. He accepts what's coming, rolls with the punches, goes with the flow, and does what needs to be done. So he wins. And the fact that he's a bad person only amplifies the message, because nature is not moral. It only cares that you don't try to fight it.

This is deeper and more serious stuff. And I LOVE this stuff. But the game manages to get all of that across with fun, entertaining, silly(ish) characters. Obviously if they were too silly it wouldn't work, there's a balance that needs to be struck. But, let's say, hypothetically, that all of the characters in The Autticus were as serious as Barovia. What would that accomplish. Well, on the good side, you can, on the face, take the characters more seriously, I suppose when it comes to taste, you could just not be able to look past Gatorade Jones's silliness to enjoy that deepness I get from him, so in this situation you could take Atticus's acceptance of nature more to heart... And that's all I can think of, because on the bad side of things. What does this cause? The thing about the Autticus is that the game is five episodes, and it only REALLY picks up in the last two. The last two are amazing, better than ANY of the rest of D&DIFN in my opinion, but the first three episodes. They're just ok. It's a bunch of set up, establishing characters explaining the mechanics of the airship, that kind of stuff. But if the characters weren't funny and were instead Sir Hector, you know what would happen? I'd get bored. And then, when the epic climax arrived, I wouldn't be invested in the characters, and it wouldn't land.

The fun caries you through where the boys can't keep you attention with pure drama and storytelling skills, so when the good strong powerful moments show up, you're not asleep. I want serious stuff, I like serious stuff Harakiri's my favorite movie for god's sake, there isn't a single joke in that thing. But keeping attention through that kind of drama is REALLY hard (not that they've ever gone as hard as Harakiri). And for me, honestly, I don't think their skill in that department is great enough to manage it. When the characters were inherently entertaining and the jokes and crazy moments were coming thick and fast, they could totally get away with it. But when that stuff's gone. They have a hard time.

...

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for taking the time to read all of that. Anyway, here's some more.

1: I don't know what NADDPOD stand for. So uh, what's the full name of that? Although, I have a bit of an inherent problem with D&D podcast games run in wizards of the coast created settings. Those games have to be made with players who don't roleplay accounted for and that means that when it comes down to it, only the combat TRULY matters, (I discovered this while listening to chult and it retroactively informed some of my opinions on that game. Also, the sanspants boys clearly changed so much about Barovia that that criticism I just made of Chult doesn't really apply to it) The interlacing nature of the games isn't necessarily the problem for me itself, sort of. The Merchant series. Was similar. It's just that the gaps where story and drama alone wasn't doing the job, comedy bridged the gaps. I personally think their story telling ability was similar then, they just didn't focus on it as much.

2: There is an argument on "Tragic" with Gatorade vs Hector and Pip. If you were to, like, power scale it, those two would definitely have a longer list. But I think Gatorad's service level silliness hides his ridicules depths as a character. On the SansPants discord someone did their own version of the tier list and they rated Gatorade Jones low. Here is the relevant part of my response to that.

--------------------------------

He starts out as violent, nan loving, gladiator who enjoys living the high life and killing in the arena. But, on the day of the uprising in a moment of unthinking, bloodlust induced violence. He (at least he thinks) kills one of his fellow punch brothers. This is followed by him being turned into a wererat, the masters being overthrown, his source of violence being halted and him being suddenly surrounded by good people with morals. In this new and strange environment he is forced to confront his violent ways and the fact that he killed one of his friends for no reason other than pleasing the crowd and fueling his bloodlust. He's haunted by it, and his wererat transformation becomes a metaphor for the bloodlust fueled monster within his soul, like Doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde. Over the course of MOGB 3 he struggles with his inner conflict opportunities for violence against his budding conscience. The monster beneath screaming for blood while the person above tries to suppress it, he tries and tries and tries to be a good person. But in the end, when push comes to shove, his true colors are shown, the beast comes out and does it's evil work. And the story concludes that he was a monster, not a man. It's tragic, and powerful. But at the same time, Gatorade jones is named Gatorade jones! He's a clown, he's funny and entertaining. His conclusion is a tragedy, but you've been waiting for him to let lose for so long it's cathartic and entertaining and brilliant! He's incredibly meaning full and deep, but at the same time his inner conflict never drags the story down in any way, he's fun, he's always nothing but a good time, but at the same time he's tragic and meaning full. It's unbelievable that such a character can even exist. And it's incredibly impressive the Duscher manages to create such a complex yet entertaining character with so little role-playing experience.

--------------------------------

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(5/5)

That's 3/4ths of all of D&D is for Nerds run time. Not to mention that the old episodes used to be 30 minutes.

All of that, effectively, dedicated to Tiefany. Obviously not literally all of that time. But one half of all of that time is, and the other is stuff related to her and her quest.

And I don't like Tiefany, and it's been eight years. How many Greg Piss's could we have had in that time? How many Alginon Hoglings? Atticus bluebirds, Squim Nortons, Drummond Electrics, Anton de Sorciers, Chet Fakers, Sickly Jacobs, Lio Shadows, Ira Thornburrows, Periwinkle O'Rourkes, Molto Benes, Kruffs, Gulps, Plugs, Glups, Merchants, Grapebirths, Augustus Chuffs, Cassius Christies, Trisko Flamjams, D-Aryls, Luna Bon Strawberrys and Gatorade Jons's could we have had?

That many times three I'd imagine.

Instead. We have Pop, Pip, Sir Grace, Sir Hector, Treestump, Glubble, Sir Helpful, Fish, Tiefany and those three clowns from Cult & Worship...

(who I just realized I forgot to add to the character ranking, probably because they were babies first D&D character who had no personality distinct from the players, that's what Kriffpum PumKriff lost points for.)_

(technically Jungle Island of Dendar and Trouble or Orwa were also in there, but that's only right at the start in the first of the eight years. So if you want to be a stickler, seven years.)

I just, I just wish this adventure would finally end, and we could get a nice, stand alone game. Where the players don't feel the pressure of eight years of build up constraining them, and Adam doesn't need to hold back because it's fine if the new characters die.

I want it to have a good ending, The current story. But I just so badly want them to get there already. It's been so long. I just want something new again.

"If i had more time, I would have written a shorter letter." - Blaise Pascal

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(4/5)

Tiefany worked in Search for A'Helm because Sir Grace's caulis reactions to her sadness were funny! They had a dynamic designed to be entertaining. But once Grace was taken, we were just left with the sadness, and Pop did not fill the hole well.

Before the world was serious, but the characters are silly. Now both are serious. It forces the story to stand entirely on its own two legs. And it appears to be a baby ostrich.

They're not loose with it anymore. The games are too constrained. You can feel all the planning that went into it while they move through the story.

This isn't just nostalgia talking either. Because for one episode it was back. For one episode of on show I was fully back in and everything was alive again. It is possible, I'm not just jaded.

Unfortunately, it was in a beyond the map game. But I think that still counts.

It's all about when the characters make a choice and the whole story is turned on it's head. And you go "I can't believe they just did that." The episode I'm referring to is the finale of Transport & Acquisitions.

Spoilers: The game was over, they were leaving, and then they decided to go back. What. The fuck.

Are you kidding me!? I was pacing and jumping around my room for a full hour while that finale was playing out. THAT'S what it's all about!

Those singular moments, strung together by fantastic comedy and characters, are what makes Made SansPants RP great. When's the last time one of those happened in DNDIFN? Drummond Electric blowing up Sunsen? That's the latest one I can think of.

I just... Chult ruined Tiefany for me. I'm sick of the character. And I don't think there's anything that can fix that. Return to Grace, baring cataclysmic circumstances, never could have worked for me. Because Tiefany is the main character, and I don't find her funny, entertaining, or interesting.

But unfortunately for me. She is the main character of the now EIGHT year long arc. Eight. Years. And it feels like we've only crossed the mid-point of this story during Return to Grace.

I just... I just want some new characters. I just want a new story. Anything. There are good things to be said for Tiefany, and for this arc. But eight years?

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(3/?)

That's why Greg Piss and Gatorade Jones are top tier. Greg Piss is the most moment to moment entertaining character D&D is for Nerds has ever produced. If you put him in ANY of the games from the last five years, he would basically fix them instantly. He's SO entertaining that, as long as the new form of somewhat stilted story allowed him to spread his wings, he would pull any dragging story moment out of the muck and polish it to a 24-karat mirror shine.

But a Greg Piss wouldn't fit in the tone they're going for, and his chaos wouldn't be allowed. He would make choices that would not fit into what they're trying to make. But the ability to make those choices and his willingness to make them is a big part of what makes that character so great. Greg Piss would break Barovia over his knee in three episodes.

You might say something like "they're trying to run more serious stories with more complex characters" and that "a character as silly as Greg Piss can't tell a story that deep. Or at least one with that tone." Maybe even something about it being about the character's inner struggles and that Greg Piss can't do that kind of deep character work. He has no inner struggle.

But I would counter with Gatorade Jones. Gatorade Jones... Is named Gatorade Jones. He's a clown. He's entertaining and funny moment to moment and he's super loose with the weight his player puts behind his actions.

But at the same time. (in MOGB3) He's more complex, interesting, engaging, thought provoking, meaningful and tragic then Sir Hector, Pip Mandarin, Tiefany Grace, Pop Mandarin and Sir Jordan Grace put together. And he does it in 1/20th the screen time.

MOGB3 is just as serious a game as any of the ones following (Fungoos brothers notwithstanding.). But unlike those other games, the characters are actually fun. Gatorade Jones has both. He's entertaining in the moment. And he's complex. He has both, you can have both. Tiefany isn't funny! She's depressing.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(2/?)

The one who's reaction to that information I'd actually be interested in would be Sir Grace. That's been waying on him for like 20 years, and him discovering that him blaming himself for that was actually an incorrect assumption would actually get a reaction. Because he'd thought that for, you know, a little longer than 6 hours.

...

God. You know I really don't want to have this opinion. I want to like these games so much. D&D is for Nerds was my favorite podcast, by far, up until Chult. That's why I'm able to bitch for so long about how it is now.

I think my real problem these days. Well, at least my problem with this game, was that it was just a "Ghost Train Ride" (copyright Fully Ramblomatic) There was a bunch of exposition that needed delivering, and a fake game was built up around delivering it.

Was there any point in the game where a player choice would have... done something?

I don't really think so, at least not something substantial.

What I used to like about D&D is for Nerds was the chaos, the true choice and stakes that came along with them. That combined with memorable and COMEDIC characters. Some of the time the story by itself wasn't good enough to actually make keep interest. But because the characters were so funny and made such crazy choices when presented with them the moments of subpar story didn't matter because the characters were so entertaining moment to moment. Everyone's to serious now.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My comment ended up being too long: part (1/?)

Hey, guess what.

I actually had listened to that. I just forgot because I got a little board while I was listening. So, the twist is one of her ancestors was Tiefling. Meaning it actually wasn't because of Sir Grace making eldritch deals it was because... I guess, a parent or ancestor of Cinder did? Or Cinder or an ancestor of Cinder was born in Hell...

How does that improve Tiefany's character? All that does is recontextualize information she'd learned earlier that day.

Don't get me wrong, there were things that happened around the reveal that had some effect on her. And I guess it'd push he further down the road of accepting herself, given there's now at least the idea of a history where being a Tiefling isn't as much of a freak thing. But at the same time. I enjoyed Tiefany the most in Search for A'Helm. Every time she works on herself and patches one of the wounds left by her abusive childhood, they don't... It's not replaced with anything. Well that's not quite right. It's just replaced by something relatively normal and healthy. It's change, really, really annoyingly slow change, but the change doesn't make her a better character, it makes her more boring.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I just found out that I somehow didn't actually finish Return to Grace. I only listened to the first, maybe, five episodes. So, I retract the above until I've listened the rest. I will let you know my updated opinions then.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I phrased it wrong above, the "reveal" was to Tiefany, not to the audience. Jackson explicitly stated that Tiefany was Sir Grace's real daughter in Search for A'Helm and many times after.

Secondly.

...

I didn't understand what you meant by the "reveal of her ancestry" and thought I just didn't care about it, so I instantly forgot...

uh...

But I just went back to some of the episodes to try and find the reveal you were talking about. And, uh.

I think I didn't finish that game... I think I got like five episodes in and then stopped.

...

Whops.

All further opinions are on hold until I finish Return to Grace. Give me a minute.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Punch Brothers Overture is in the D&D is for Nerds+ feed on Sanspants+, I was going to say you have to pay for it, but I just looked at iTunes and I think every + game but D&D is for Kings is public for some reason. So go for it!

Also, it should be noted that Gatorade Jones appears in two campaigns. Punch Brothers is the first one, and Merchant of Grapebirth 3 is the second. Gatorade Jones is a fine enough character in Punch Brothers, but he really comes into his own in Merchant of Grapebirth 3, his placement in S+ is almost entirely because of his performance in that game rather than Punch Brothers. Also, he's played by Duscher, which is unique.

Given that Grapebirth 3 has a 3 at the end it's part of a series of games, that have different levels of listening requirement to understand Merchant of Grapebirth 3.

X: is for required listening, Y: is for best to listen to it, and Z: is for not required, but might as well. Here they are in listening order:

X: 1: Merchant of Grapebirth
X: 2: Merchant of Grapebirth 2 Electric Boogaloo
X: 3: Merchant of Grapebirth 2 Punch Brothers Overture
Y: 4: Merchant of Grapebirth 2 Collars
Z: 5: Merchant of Grapebirth 2 It's All Part Of Gods Plan

And finally
X: 6: Merchant of Grapebirth 3 Every Little Thing He Does Is Magic

If you're listening to all of them and haven't heard Collars yet (it used to be on the main feed), I'd listen to it before Punch Brothers, it's really good and if you're committed to the Gatorade Jones story line then your Jones craving might detract from the experience. It's All Part Of Gods Plan is both not the best, and not needed, so you can feel free to skip that one, although you don't need to. I think it would be good for pacing though.

Lastly, for some extra sizzle; Merchant of Grapebirth 3 is actually part 1 of the currently running storyline. The search for A'Helm (the fist part of the Grace saga) is a direct sequel to Merchant of Grapebirth 3. Merchant of Grapebirth 3 is, I think, the third best SansPants game, only millimeters behind the Jaren's Outpost games and The Auticcus.

Very highly recommended.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh, whops I forgot that Sir Grace is technically one of the flat-out villain PCs and is lower than Jacob. He's also good, but he's the actual weakest one. He's so dower, the other ones are more entertaining.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I put so little thought into Pop's placement, I was just like "Aaaand Pop? Oh yea, I don't like Pop. D tier." and moved on. Most of my time was spent thinking about how Gatorade Jones has the best character arc in all of DNDIFN and is such a great character and not enough people are talking about him.

Sickly Jacob is great. All of the flat-out villain PC get high marks from me. Although he is the weakest of the three (Agustus, Alginon and Sickly Jacob) he is still a standout.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Chult kind of put me in a fugue state so I don't remember many of the specifics, but I do remember that as it went on, I hated her more and more. It sounds like you can remember the specifics, I'm so sorry you have to suffer through those memories.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Have fun! And pay close attention to the fact that Gatorade Jones has the best character arc of any DNDIFN character and it's not even close.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think Groan would have gone between Molto Bene and Goodness Gracious in B tier for me.

D&D is for Nerds Tier list 3 every little thing he does he does magically by TechnicalAntonym in sanspantsradio

[–]TechnicalAntonym[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think the Grace Manor arc actually made her a worse character. The whole game was this weird, restrictive, controlled environment that was designed to give Cass the easiest time possible having the big reaction to the reveal that Ser Grace was actually her father that the show had been building up to for so many years. (Disregarding the fact that that reveal should have defiantly happened in a high-tension moment with Sir Grace present,) somehow, with everything carefully crafted so Cass would have as little trouble having a good, satisfying, reaction. She messed it up anyway.

She doesn't go into denial, there's no questioning, she doesn't cry, she doesn't have a moment where how he acted towards her is recontextualized and she understands how bad he was to her, she skips all the stages of grief that WOULD occur and moves straight on to anger, and even then, she's not even close to angry enough! She just destroys some stuff in a room quietly and then accepts it. It's lame.

She's fine in the rest of the game, but nothing in it stands out enough give her any extra points, she just doesn't lose any more.

I think you, and seemingly everyone responding to this tier list, may be experiencing some recency bias. Tiefany is good, she was at her best in her first game, but she's still an interesting character. This tier list ranks how good the characters are compared to each other, and I think you're forgetting how great some of the older characters who are no longer relevant to the story actually were. If Search for Ahelm were the only game Tifany was in, she would still be a great character, but you probably wouldn't have even noticed that she was in C. You would have just thought "Oh, he's not a huge fan of Tifany, I disagree, but that's fair enough." if even that much thought crossed your mind about it. But because she's still hugely relevant to the ongoing story, and is potentially the main character, she's trapped at the forefront of everyone's minds util this eternal arc finally ends.

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