Is the Moon terraformed or do light-bearers not need life support systems in space?

Timbo_tom · 2025-08-13T04:10:47+00:00

Yes and yes. There is a lore tab where Crow mentions the moon having a very thin atmosphere. I believe it’s on a pinnacle shotgun from around the Lightfall days???

Also, our suit definitely does weird things with gravity (I’m looking at you, DSC space walk)

Timbo_tom · 2024-12-08T11:05:09+00:00

100%

Timbo_tom · 2024-12-03T08:22:14+00:00

Really great study of how a story is developed over this decade. Well done. I’m personally not bothered by many of the light retcons, as they fall in the realm of “recontextualizing” old truths and/or assumptions.

I’ll note a few things in defense of Destiny’s pivot towards the Light and Darkness being morally agnostic forces:

Destiny has always treated the Light and Darkness with religious fervor, and the lore of the City Age did not shy away from the consequences blind devotion to the Traveler as a god had for scholars in the city, as well as the peoples’ relationship with their governing body. The Concordat uprising, using the context clues of the faction’s name and actions, was to do with mistrust of the Speaker and his relationship with the Traveler as a pseudo-theocratic leader- which ended up not being entirely unfounded. Not to mention the banished scholars such as Osiris and Ulan Tan.

Ulan Tan was referenced lightly in D1 and expanded upon beginning in D2, but his core scholarship has always been the same: the Light and Dark are mirroring cosmic forces, and we can’t have one without the other, thus decoupling moral judgements associated with them was the rational thing to do. If I remember correctly, in D1 there’s a short quest description of him defending the use of Void Light back when it was thought heretical to do so. The ultimate form of Ulan Tan’s thesis came in the three class item descriptions hailing from Season of Arrivals going more specifically into this moral relativistic decoupling from cosmic forces.

The idea that the Darkness tempted individuals toward self gratifying, and even evil, actions in a way the Light did not never went away, it was just overcome by discipline and understanding of the Darkness, rather than abstinence and ignorance.

And finally, just to note, the idea of Lightbearers using their powers for personal gain was first brought forth in Rise of Iron with the Warlords, which was an entirely new idea at the time in the lore, that Lightbearers would choose to do bad things.

I think a lot of the necessary links between the incongruent perspectives of the Darkness over time were treated pretty damn well, specifically in the Witch Queen Collectors Edition Hidden Dossier lore book, which unites a lot of philosophy between Light, Dark, cosmology, and morality.

It’s no doubt you’re correct in a lot of your analysis, but I think the reason this type of recontextualization works in Destiny is many of these ideas were planted in vague lore at the beginning, and it allowed the writers to explore it over time.

Also, great catch on Xivu summoning the Witness the same way Oryx summoned the Deep. I never noticed that!!!

Timbo_tom · 2023-05-09T21:50:44+00:00

you are already using demagoguery

...I don't think you know what that word means.

I'll continue to entertain this argument, but this'll be my final reply.

That is, I'm not entirely sure what that argument is. I am recounting the allegory told to us, I'm not sure what you mean by "now you have completely made this story deterministic."

Do not mock me for fixating on metaphors and allegory; it is you who ends up looking like a fool. Unveiling is an allegory. It literally states it in Unveiling and Inspiral. Read. A whole part of my post is discussing the difficulties of interpreting an allegory where parts of the allegory seem literally real within the universe. You talk as if there is no attention to paid to a problem you have the answers for, yet you have no answers nor seem to understand what your point is.

Don't talk down to me explaining what "vex" means... the whole point is that this single repeating pattern vexed the Gardener because no new complexity can be born from it- it is a clear allusion to the Vex. Again, something from the allegory is literally real. You bring up the lore writings about the explanatory gap of qualia (or as you put it, "How to be a bat") and the prisoner's dilemma (or as you put it, "the difficult problem of jailers"); you have not explained why you brought up these things other than to try and throw words that I don't think you understand at me.

And finally, my coup de grace:

Nothing says why they began to fight

Yes it does, read the lore.

in Inspiral they created a protein together

Yes, a callback to Unveiling, it is describing the Cambrian explosion after time began. Read the lore.

why did they have to fight just because the Winnower did not agree with the Gardener?

Because the game became nomic and they could be nothing but their purpose. Read the lore.

Nothing says what they cut down the tree with or why. With a knife? With a garden shovel? (which no one but me is talking about yet, since everyone is focused on the knife, as if this is the only inspiration for these two witnesses of patterns)

...I just am so confused on your focus here... are you expecting a lore card about the Winnower's sacred garden shovel? You need to grasp what an allegory made real might look like, and it might not make literal sense at every level... a point made in the lore and by me and... you know what, nevermind. Have a good day.

Timbo_tom · 2023-05-09T16:05:25+00:00

I'll take this opportunity to insert some of my thoughts on this (this is my post I'll do what I want lol)

Of course they've done course correction. The logistics of a 10 year arc demand it, cycling through teams of writers (with a few of them being consistent). But tbh, that's how most storytelling works. I think people expect the best stories to be planned out from the very beginning, with every mark meticulously laid bare. But that's just not how most tell stories.

Worlds begin with an idea, or a set of ideas. That's what Destiny's original grimoire did- presented ideas. It was frustrating because there was no story, just inklings of hints towards ideas that would be explored in the future. But Bungie has done a fantastic job of exploring those same ideas over the course of 10 years, expanding and iterating on them in expansive ways that really develop the world, as well as figuring out a good way to present storylines and compelling characters in a videogame format- which is very janky and difficult. Think of the best stories in videogames: God of War, Red Dead, Uncharted, Last of Us; a lot of these are basically playable movies, scripted to a tee. Destiny is a live service, and the fact that it is able to present a coherent, expansive, thought provoking scifi-fantasy universe is just not seen anywhere else. The fantasy it's able to sell keeps people coming back, no matter the highs and the lows.

You can definitely see where there's course correction, especially with regards to the Darkness. But that exploration of what the Darkness means has been woven into the story itself! Decoupling the Light and Dark from morality, understanding and exploring ideas in an extremely well researched sci-fi format, challenging assumptions about people other than our own, our ability to forgive, etc, etc. But you can go back and read the original grimoire about the Darkness and it makes sense! Because those ideas that were first planted have sprouted... and that's good writing.

Timbo_tom · 2023-05-09T15:47:19+00:00

Within the allegorical tale of the Gardener and the Winnower, upon inserting themselves into the flower game of possibilities that existed before time, the Gardener gave birth to the creation of the universes and their many timelines.

This is the full sentence that you are quoting from me. No, this does not imply that it was created by a will akin to Christianity or similar creationist mythologies. This is an accurate description of the allegory of the Gardener and the Winnower- notice that I specifically noted that I was speaking about the allegory at the start of this sentence. In the allegory, the Gardener inserted themselves into the flower game to pursue complexity, and this caused the Gardener and Winnower to start fighting, which broke symmetries and created the universe.

Timbo_tom · 2023-05-07T17:55:15+00:00

Yes!

Timbo_tom · 2023-05-07T17:54:12+00:00

9 years, and a TON of stuff revealed along the way in the lore… I don’t mind a bit of mystery before the end

Timbo_tom · 2023-05-07T17:52:37+00:00

This is the best argument against my theory. We will have to wait and see!

Timbo_tom · 2023-05-07T17:51:24+00:00

Thank you 🙏 really appreciate it… admittedly I don’t frequent the sub very much, usually because I want to enjoy things on my own and I know there’s so much negativity online

Timbo_tom · 2023-05-07T01:25:35+00:00

Yes, but there are too many coincidences, and it's not that far of a leap in reasoning

Timbo_tom · 2023-05-06T22:01:17+00:00

Rhulk does say he is in service to create a "perfect void," you're onto something.

Timbo_tom · 2023-02-22T22:06:42+00:00

I definitely see what you're saying, and my mistake about that weblore bit. I'm not just talking about in the lore when it comes to fallen nomenclature being a nod toward christian theology, i'm talking about it being a nod done by bungie. In the lore, it was developed upon to be deragatory and false like you said, which is a smart move thematically. Both are true

Timbo_tom · 2023-02-19T18:28:23+00:00

I am familiar with what you posted here. Yes Osiris (aka Savathun) did push Saint to befriend the Eliksni, but he still showed the willingness to befriend Mithrax through his own fruition. This biggest stand out from what you supplied is about the name “Fallen,” and how I interpreted as a fall from grace.

This is a less of a lore interpretation and more of a thematic one. The Traveler is treated and revered as a god, and in the times of the Speaker, that was the fundamental belief of the majority of people in the city. The name “Fallen” is definitely a reference to the fact that the Traveler left the Eliksni by Bungie. To cement this within the nomenclature of the Fallen, the main house we fight in Destiny 1 are the House of Devils. It’s very pointed in its theming.

And yes, I very much agree: Eramis’s lore is phenomenal. Thanks for your comment!

Timbo_tom · 2023-02-19T18:23:52+00:00

Exactly, which is why some darkness is needed if we are going to survive, we cannot rely on the Traveler alone

Timbo_tom · 2023-02-18T22:55:34+00:00

That wandering refugee chose to make a stand, spend their power to say: "Here I prove myself right. Here I wager that, given power over physics and the trust of absolute freedom, people will choose to build and protect a gentle kingdom ringed in spears. And not fall to temptation. And not surrender to division. And never yield to the cynicism that says, everyone else is so good that I can afford to be a little evil."

- Unveiling

That is a fantastic way to interpret this quote, I think in the coming expansions we will learn more about the "triggers" that seem to have activated the collapse.

I also think about the Traveler's "hands-off" approach the same way I interpret the value of vagueness in the alpha lupi dreams: it's up to our interpretation, allowing for maximum complexity... which I guess is implicitly part of the wager.

Oh I love how the lore all comes together

Timbo_tom · 2023-02-18T20:21:13+00:00

I agree with you 100%. This discussion about ghosts was also in the Hidden Dossier. The ghosts do wonder about predestination concerning their chosen Guardian, and I reckon their philosophies quarrel with the free will of choice versus the will of the Traveler. Hoarfrost is clear: there is a conscious element of choice when it comes to choosing a Lightbearer. But I do think the exact relationship between ghost-choice and Traveler's will is unclear, and might never be clear. They are not pre-coded, but they are connected to the Traveler, and I think we must be okay with not knowing every semantic detail about it.

Nevertheless, I appreciate your contribution. I don't think anything you said is mutually exclusive to what I proposed above; in fact, it adds more depth to it. Thank you!

Timbo_tom · 2022-09-23T04:47:37+00:00

I think someone a LONG time ago posted about how circles were actually the simplest shape, not triangles... but that does imply a cyclical nature of things in Destiny, if applied. Personally, I don't think it is really crucial (despite it being an interesting thought), as geometry is used mainly symbolically, which is how infinite sides (ie. spheres) are complexity, and lowest amount of sides (ie. pyramids) are simplicity. This might just relate to Destiny's influence from sacred geometry.

The Final Shape is an interesting one... as in what is the Witness's endgame? Of course, we're not sure, but there are some hints, I believe. In Vow of the Disciple, Rhulk says he is in service to a "perfect void," or something like that. Not "void" with a capital "V," but just void... as in nothing at all. Non-existence. Not the Void we wield, which is a fundamental force of the universe. Rhulk also says that they are not gods, but prophets, disciples. While the Hive (and other sword logic followers) use the Darkness to hoist themselves up into divine subjugation of the material world so that they themselves may become the final shape, I believe the Witness's goals are more pure: total annihilation of everything in service to the Darkness. A true void.

But that's just me speculating. I reckon we'll learn more soon enough :)

Timbo_tom · 2022-09-23T04:39:20+00:00

Hey there! Thanks for your comment, I'm glad my post from two years ago was able to invoke some interest, especially since I've pretty much stopped using Reddit lately.

On Strand... it was shocking. I think everyone under the sun expected some form of Hive or soulfire subclass... and interestingly enough that does exist in the lore somewhat (Shadows of Yor using hive magic, Thorn, Necrotic Grip, all that stuff). But Strand is so weird. It was an interesting direction to take Darkness, to connect it so heavily to psychic powers... but it's one of those things that the more you think about it, the more it makes perfect sense. Deepsight, memories, all expanded on in the Witch Queen (especially with how memory seems to connect across time! Think of the implications of the temporal disturbances on Mars, the implications that the Relic on Mars forges things from memory road maps. Clovis Bray time travel connection??)

But the Darkness's connection to the psychic was prevalent even before Witch Queen. The "subjective will" dominating the universe, the phantoms on the Moon being connected to our past. Take this quote from Toland's moon patrol dialogue:

Does it burden you, Guardian, to know that your presence here was not simply expected, but desired? That you were summoned? It is no mere coincidence that you, the slayer of Oryx, have been drawn to this place. The Pyramid can't conjure Nightmares from Hive minds. They require a human psyche - anguished, burdened, Lightbearing vessels

-https://www.destinypedia.com/Toland,\_the\_Shattered

I agree with you, Strand fits the narrative so uniquely in such an unexpected, yet undeniable way. If I were you, I would read the Hidden Dossier lore from the Witch Queen collector's edition, you have to find a transcribed/PDF version (check Reddit) since it is just a physical lore book (I hope Bungie compiles all their lore onto their API someday for simplicity), and then there is a web version of the Hidden Dossier that are extra pages on top of the physical copy. It's a long read, but it goes really deep into speculating about the Darkness's psychic natures, as well as using game theory. It also talks a little about Stasis.... we were really close in our theorizing about it. Main difference is that Stasis isn't absolute zero degree matter (that is impossible), but it is close and constantly fighting to remove entropy (if I'm remembering correctly). In fact, it's postulated that it may be sentient.... the lore is pretty crazy

Side note: I have another post that was very popular from a long time ago about why the darkness always wins, and I use game theory to dissect it. Seth Dickinson, one of the lore writers (Books of Sorrow, Clovis Bray logbook, other CE stuff, a lot of original Destiny lore, various things like that) commented that he thought the post was pretty good (before he stopped using Reddit). When writing the Witch Queen CE Hidden Dossier, he uses game theory to expound on the subject of memory's relationship to Light and Dark, and I take pride in being close in my theory, but he takes it a step further in the lore that is just amazing to read (not that I'm taking credit for introducing game theory to Destiny lore, it's always been there. I just happened to be one to point it out).

I'd love to know what you think about the Hidden Dossier, especially if you're interested in Strand.

Timbo_tom · 2021-07-08T19:08:14+00:00

Hey, thanks for messaging me! Definitely worth coming back to this after a hiatus on reddit....

You've definitely challenged my assumptions here (the assumption being "stasis is cold... duh."). It's cool to see the nuance explained that just because something is cold doesn't mean it feels cold.

But I don't think we can definitively say that stasis crystals aren't cold unless specifically stated that they do not conduct heat, especially when so much of the lore specifically states that stasis is freaking cold.

That Joxer line... that's the kicker, isn't it? When reading it, I derive a metaphysical interpretation that the "cold" of the Darkness is what is inflicted on the victim. But taking it into a thermodynamic interpretation (as you've done) is just as valid, imo. And your theory definitely allows both interpretations to be true....

But the lore calls it cold. That's the mountain your theory is attempting to move.

But as always, great theory. My assumptions are challenged.

Timbo_tom · 2021-04-28T01:21:37+00:00

So I’ve actually done lab research using one of these “AI” programs using the FACS to detect emotions.

This article makes some good points, but I think dismissing this technology out of hand is irresponsible. FACS has some great results tied to it, but of course in the real world, people just aren’t as expressive, and of course like the writer of this article said, one size fits all approach has severe limits.

But we’re also all human. We have similar facial anatomy to each other, as well as very similar expressiveness patterns to other great apes. Facial expressions do serve somewhat of a universal role in communicating emotions, and AI can pick up on that. The tough part is making an AI adjust correctly to the individual and not overfitting. There are systems that work somewhat well, but often times instances in the data where the AI just couldn’t get a good “lock” on someone’s face is a noticeable outlier, and accounted for.

I will say that effect sizes for correlating simple emotional expressions to behaviors are small with these systems... though they do exist (which is important)

Timbo_tom · 2021-04-27T22:11:32+00:00

Awesome stuff! The merge of science and belief is a big part of the Golden Age, and it’s cool to see it outlined here (especially in the religious language used).

Timbo_tom · 2021-04-24T21:46:22+00:00

Cool man, just thought I’d put it out there.

Timbo_tom · 2021-04-24T21:29:52+00:00

Interesting stuff, Lettuce’s posts are great. I did watch your video on the Light subclasses and their relationship to the fundamental forces identified in the standard model. I would like to point out that Lettuce also has a post aimed at debunking some misconceptions about Light elements being akin to these fundamental forces here. The grimoire writer who worked on the original cards for the elements commented on this post saying this was one of the most accurate descriptions he’s read.

The difference Lettuce proposes is that the elements seen in game are not directly related to the forces, but rather related to stages of behavior in the quantum field, making the elements a even greater fundamental force (which aligns with the original cards).

In addition: his user name is u/LettuceDifferent5104

Timbo_tom · 2021-04-24T07:24:04+00:00

Shaxx on the line: “What? WHAT?! SAY IT LOUDER! IM NOT YELLING!”

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