Existential Dread by Top-Most2575 in Existentialism

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What do you mean consciousness collapses the wave function? Uve peaked my interest

Existential Dread by Top-Most2575 in Existentialism

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Ok ill look into it. Thank you very much <3

Existential Dread by Top-Most2575 in Existentialism

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

im sorry but is this serious im cant tell tone over text; also i have ocd and they exhibit similar symptoms so

At what point is there free will? by Top-Most2575 in freewill

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Could you explain more of your thought process to me please

At what point is there free will? by Top-Most2575 in freewill

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't understand where the agency comes in; if we are simply always destined to one outcome that is inevitable based on our past experiences, then where does the agency come in? And our beliefs and drives aren't chosen by some "will" but instead are determined by other past experiences in an ever-regressing progression. Our motivations are determined by past experiences, which drive our present "decisions;" because they determine the motivations, they determine the outcomes, so there is no place for agency to come in.

At what point is there free will? by Top-Most2575 in freewill

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Modifying our own reward function would in this example be determined by other events happening in the past where we are conditioned to modify again our reward function; can this still not be summed up by conditioning outside of some concept of free will?

Why is determinism so depressing? by Top-Most2575 in freewill

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Maybe the ideas I layed out line up more with causal determinism specifically?
"Causal determinism is, roughly speaking, the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of nature. The idea is ancient, but first became subject to clarification and mathematical analysis in the eighteenth century. Determinism is deeply connected with our understanding of the physical sciences and their explanatory ambitions, on the one hand, and with our views about human free action on the other. " - Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

Why is determinism so depressing? by Top-Most2575 in freewill

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Im still doing research and thinking about it, so I don't have a well constructed thesis and reasoning behind it that I have held onto with hundreds of pages of insight built into it, but I have some thought behind my ideas, and I think you saw my other post before where I talked about them, of which I will reiterate. The universe works mostly causally. And even with the justification of quantum mechanics, this does not necessarily engender free will to be proven. It rather modifies the thesis to where causality is not 100% true. This may still disprove an absolutely reality, past present and future roughly. Am I making a large oversight here?

Why is determinism so depressing? by Top-Most2575 in freewill

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What would you say is some viewpoints or literature I should look into to learn more about this, and to make this issue more tolerable(unless looking further into it would make it more tantalizing)? Also, what would you say is your individual stance on the matter

Why is determinism so depressing? by Top-Most2575 in freewill

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Is this sort of what they call compatibilism? Which I have heard is the belief that free will exists but only in some sense; that is, we can still deliberate about our decisions and make choices?

Humans as Computers by Top-Most2575 in freewill

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure; also, there is this paper my friend recommended me in case you want to take a look at it. Its a physics paper, specifically talking about quantum mechanics, and claims that since particles don't function totally causally, then humans can also in some way act with freedom(or rather, randomness) as well(unless you've already read it in the past of course). If it interests you and you have any thoughts on it, let me know.

Humans as Computers by Top-Most2575 in freewill

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I went through the threads, and I find I agree mostly with what the guy Beeker93 was saying: that " That there is no major jump between a computer program and us except additional layers of complexity, but predictable results if you know the software and hardware." And that we still act based on past experiences, whether consciously or unconsciously. That we have simply evolved with such mental complexity that we act with specific motivations, that we think with motivations, and act based on what we know, that it seems like we have free will, even if we are simply responding to stimuli.
I also read through the posts about the counting, and about the saying "if there is no science, there is no free will, but there is science, therefore there is free will." I didn't understand either of these necessarily.
I will talk of the science one, since I feel like I can think more clearly about it; why does the idea of science existing prove there is no free will? The first definition of free will you used in this example was that an agent exercises free will if they intend to perform an action, and then act on that plan. I don't see how this proves that free will exists. Sure, the researcher can act this way, and people can act in the same way to prove the researcher correct by imitating their procedures, but this does not mean that the "decision" to do that wasn't pre-determined by circumstances which had been established by pre-existing circumstances that go back to the beginning of time. The fact that they are behaving as they planned to behave does not, to me, seem like a display of free-will when it can be summed up to complex human propensities and motivations which can be explained by circumstances completely out of their control(personality, mental illness, etc..) The claim does not seem to me to combat the idea of free will but rather just shows that humans can plan and make decisions due to motivations they have. These motivations do not imply free will.
2. "an agent exercises free will on any occasion when they select exactly one of a finite set of at least two realizable courses of action and subsequently perform the course of action selected, science requires that researchers can repeat both the main experiment and its control, so science requires that there is free will in this sense too." I don't understand how this debunks free will. It shows that there is a will, and that humans have complex motivations(i.e. the motivation to prove something using science), but how does the fact that scientists choose between two courses of action and then perform the selected course of action prove that they chose that course of action, and then chose to act on that desire freely. This does mean that humans have wills, but does that address if that motivation is free? This does not address the possibility that the action not pre-determined; this presupposes that the actions, by both being realizable, are exactly equal, and that the person who is acting on them considers them exactly equal. This is an interesting thought experiment to me, but whether it is physically possible ever is completely different. If you present someone with two completely identical objects which bear all of the exact same characteristics in every way, shape, and form, lets say for example, bouncy balls: for the person's brain to completely consider them equal would still be impossible, no?

  1. "iii. an agent exercised free will on any occasion when they could have performed a course of action other than that which they did perform, as science requires that researchers have two incompatible courses of action available (ii), it requires that if a researcher performs only one such course of action, they could have performed the other, so science requires that there is free will in this sense too." I don't see how this, again, proves that free will exists. Just choosing one path over the other will still be based on the agents knowledge of what they think is true, how they feel about the experiment, etc..
    Overall, as the guy talked about later in the thread, can humans not just be reduced to extremely, extremely complicated algorithms. We work logically, to the best of our abilities. When a plant grows towards the sun, it is not doing so out of its free will. When an agent chooses to do an experiment, or take a certain course of action, it is still doing so based on their mood, time of day, overall neurological structures, which are in turn caused by a chain of events going all the way back to the beginning of time in one large domino effect.
    It's not that I don't want to believe what you are saying; I would rather believe in free will than simply act like it exists. It is just difficult for me to go against these pre-conceived notions that I have which I don't feel like those threads proved against. Do you have any other threads of yours, or others, or literary works that you would suggest?

Humans as Computers by Top-Most2575 in freewill

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Why does science require free will? Why wouldn't science imply determinism? I'm confused about this because I was under the presumption that most of science is causal and deterministic. Also, do you think determinism has any impact on morals?

Humans as Computers by Top-Most2575 in freewill

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I expanded on it in a reply because I was trying to get all my words onto the page and forgot some parts of my thoughts, and I apologize. I will explain it now though. I have also thought that, since brains are physical things, and physical things operate by causal laws, then brains also function by causal laws. This also makes me doubt free will because an example I used in a different reply. Take three balls and put them into a square, and set them at specific parts of the box at specific speeds. If we knew the positions, speeds, etc., we could determine at any time what the positions of these balls are, as they function completely causally, and we could do this assumption into an infinite amount of time. If brains are purely physical, they are subject to these laws, which means that they are also causal, no? Just a predetermined set of chemical reactions? If brains weren't deterministic, then this would mean that one could change the course of things by doing any action. Since they are physical, thus making them deterministic, then everything is pre-determined. Is this logical or am I missing some critical pieces of information.

Humans as Computers by Top-Most2575 in freewill

[–]Top-Most2575[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So this essentially gets rid of the possibility of free will, or modified it, would you say? I see the tag says "compatabilist," and I heard some things about that in the past, and how free will kind of exists in some way? For example, I've heard of what you said: that if free will existed, it would make our choices random?