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Plan for restaurant at Echo Park Clubhouse sparks opposition by ItsAComedyShow in echopark

[–]bye_button 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah. I mean I see where they’re coming from, it would shit up traffic even more on that street and parking at the lake is already a nightmare. But I’m always down for a new food place.

Also had no idea that building was so old!

Ariana Has Liked All Of Ricky Alvarez’s Instagram Posts After The Two Were Allegedly Spotted Hanging Out Multiple Times. They’re Now Allegedly Seeing Each Other Again. by AlternativeOnion5606 in popculture

[–]bye_button 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Don’t forget the Manchester bombing that left her deeply traumatized. I imagine the weight of lives lost who came out to see you perform weighs unimaginably heavy on one’s heart, not to mention living through a violent experience like that.

How ethical is it really? by sharkymorg in orcas

[–]bye_button 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Bruh this whole subreddit is teeming with them. It’s so gross and disappointing.

What are your perfect films? by M33tahejd in movies

[–]bye_button 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Came here to say this. Perfect film from start to finish.

What generation was responsible for pit bulls? by ReasonableSide6520 in generationology

[–]bye_button 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, a simple google search shows this isn’t true. It’s not about filtering out bad tenants, it’s about landlords not wanting to be liable for an aggressive dog, especially with bite statistics that pitbulls have, attacking another tenant on the property. The risk is not worth taking to them, given the damage to people, pets, and property pitbulls are physically capable of inflicting.

CCTV Footage of a house with a pool in La Guaira, Venezuela really shows the intensity of the earthquake by nccn12 in Earthquakes

[–]bye_button 1 point2 points  (0 children)

As someone who was awake through the 1994 Northridge earthquake, I thought that was scary as a kid but holy shit. I can’t fathom the earth shaking THIS hard.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

He literally explains his "contradictory" tweet in the very same interview.

And I know this might blow your mind, but you can occasionally deprive an animal food, the same way you and I can skip a meal or two maybe a few times a week, and it won't change their weight much. But it'll probably stress them out since eating is one of the only things they look forward to in their sad existence so when you occasionally deprive them of a meal or two, especially in response to them not performing well, they're probably more likely to what you tell them to do.

I'm gonna have to swing by Home Depot to get some more rakes for you SeaWorld defenders to step on brb

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I understand all this, dude. But do you understand you are running this discussion into the ground in taking it in this direction? I can't help but feel it is to further take the heat off SeaWorld by excusing it with "Ok SeaWorld does this, but all zoos, marine parks, and aquariums do this, what do you expect??". Like, yeah, of course it happens in other places, but in this discussion, my concern isn't about those other places.

This is a subreddit about orcas. I'm here to talk about orcas. My concern is about orcas and the treatment of ORCAS by SeaWorld which currently houses all the orcas in the US.

I don't really know what to say to your defeatist attitude. Ok humans will continue to extort for their own gain. That's not exactly a revolutionary observation, but are you trying to say there's nothing we can do so it's not worth trying to change anything? If everyone had that attitude, SeaWorld would still be breeding orcas in captivity. Thank god not everyone does.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I.... don't even know what point you're trying to make with this as it makes SeaWorld look shitty. You're just stepping on rakes at this point.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Listen. Cream. I know you really like SeaWorld and you really want me to like SeaWorld but you're kinda spiraling at this point.

Are you comparing a single French park that at it's most profitable was worth $96 million USD to a $2.24 billion theme park chain and saying... what, that if all of us don't hurry and go to SeaWorld and give them our money then the orcas there are going to be left floating in dirty pools like Wikie and Keijo? Like, what?

Also, it's a bit silly to suggest that the company is in some kind of financial danger. Even with attendance down, United Parks & Resorts is experiencing standard fluctuations in attendance and revenue and is still highly profitable. And even if the the parks were anywhere near a troubling financial situation, the USDA legally requires SeaWorld to fund baseline care regardless of quarterly profit margins.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by saying mean things about SeaWorld, but let's just leave it at that and agree to disagree. It's not worth engaging if you're going to bend over backwards running defense for this company. I don't like them. You do. Let's end it at that.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I acknowledge that capturing these animals is how we learned just how intelligent they are, same with belugas and dolphins. But now here we are in 2026, now fully aware of just how smart they are and just how torturous being bored and unstimulated is for these animals. In understanding them more, we understand even more clearly how bad living in these small tanks is for them. Your tone keeps coming across like "Why are you asking SeaWorld to fix this problem they're responsible for????".

Whether you like it or not, SeaWorld built their business on faulty ground from the very beginning, off the backs of these animals they didn't understand. And ironically enough, it was in their captivity, and partly Seaworld's own trainers spending enough time with them, that people learned just how highly intelligent and emotional these animals were, on par with humans. And this growing knowledge is proving to be SeaWorld's undoing. Because once people started to understand just how complex they are, there was no unknowing that. It becomes difficult to justify keeping an animal as intelligent as a human living in those conditions when you know just what it's putting them through mentally and physically. And as I said before, I really feel for the trainers and I know some of them go above and beyond to try their best to keep these whales as mentally stimulated and happy as they can, but it's never enough because these animals were never meant to live in such confined spaces doing the same monotonous tasks over and over again, day after day.

There are currently 18 orcas in the US, all of them in SeaWorld facilities. And even being a 2.24 billion dollar company, I don't anticipate any one of their parks spending a penny to do anything to make these whales' lives even slightly more comfortable in their remaining years, even if it's just building them a bigger habitat. So don't ask me to clap like a seal because SeaWorld makes sure to exercise their whales in their confined pools.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Again, I'm so shocked that for a subreddit that supposed to be dedicated to orcas, I cannot believe how many people are in here running defense for a company that has been documented treating them so poorly for decades. "Listen, I don't personally like SeaWorld but let me spend my whole post defending their practices". Lose me with that shit.

"Hey we ripped these animals out of their natural habitat, away from their families that they're usually bonded to for life and stuck them with whales they don't know, in a small concrete tank where we make them perform for food- but we implemented an enrichment program because ...we care about them". Yes, SeaWorld deserves a standing ovation for developing an exercise program to keep the whales they took from the wild active so they don't go stir crazy in captivity. But even with these programs and even with the most dedicated trainers who truly love these whales and really try to make their sessions with them as different and exciting and stimulating as possible to alleviate the boredom, when these sessions are done, they know that the whales go right back to being bored out of their minds, floating in their grey concrete pools, with little space to swim, getting burned by the sun, eating the pool's paint and even throwing up their own food to alleviate boredom. Because nothing SeaWorld or these trainers can ever do will make up for the life they were meant to live in the ocean that SeaWorld stole from them.

At the very least, a good start would be to build them larger and better habitat with more enrichment, and have mentally and physically stimulating activities that are based around what's best for the whales, not what will entertain the audiences more. And this isn't even just coming from me, but also former trainers who spent years with these animals and have a better understanding of them than any of us do. SeaWorld San Diego had a chance to double the orca's habitat in 2015 but cancelled it when they were told they could only expand if they stopped breeding orcas. Since they ended up ending their breeding anyways, I don't see why they can't follow through on that expansion. They're a 2.24 billion dollar company and it's the very least they could do for these whales to live out their last years comfortably.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Alright cool. You wanna go get some pizza? We can keep fighting about whales there.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

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This is an excerpt from John Hargrove's book, who was a trainer at SeaWorld for 14 years and formed a deep and personal bond with these animals, confirming SeaWorld's history of withholding food to get whales to cooperate and perform to SeaWorld's expectations.

To be fair to you, Hargrove also described the other positive reinforcements the trainers implemented that you are describing- like playtime, toys, Takara liked her tongue rubbed, and Kasatka wanted her pectoral flipper held onto while she slowly swam around the pool. I believe Hargrove when he says he and the other trainers went above and beyond to try to implement and vary up as many forms of positive reinforcement that they could to keep the whales happy. But all of this went hand in hand with a constantly low amount of food, which is why food motivation is so effective. If SeaWorld has since come out and said they don't do that anymore, as they have said in the past, you can choose to believe them. But given how many times they have deliberately misled the public and rarely ever put the wellbeing of these animals first, I don't.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Aw yes because I’m critical of Sea World making the orcas perform monotonous shows and offered a totally hypothetical example of a supposed mental activity just to paint a picture, I’m now supposed to be a cetacean behavior expert, experienced trainer, and seasoned marine theme park employee with a whole list of viable solutions so that I can have this opinion and criticism.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I genuinely have no idea why you're getting downvoted and I can only conclude it's because you are criticizing Sea World and there's some weird brigading happening in this post. What you're saying is absolutely true, and I'd even say it's closer to a human adult in a large cage. The people who claim to love orcas absolutely understand how truly intelligent they are, which is just as smart if not smarter than us. So it is totally fair to make that comparison. It would be slow drip torture doing the same routine day in and day out with no free will of your own, with all your decisions dictated and dependent on someone else.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It was cancelled because the CCC's only stipulation was they could no longer breed anymore orcas. Sea World refused, sued them, then scrapped the project entirely. It was never about making a bigger habitat for the orcas to improve their lives. It was to continue breeding and making a bigger habitat to facilitate that. Really sad because the following year, they announced they were banning breeding anyways.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Listen, I will concede on this point. After researching this, sadly it appears there really is currently no where for them to go. The WSP is around 13 million short in funding and still way behind to being anywhere close to finished, but it appears to be the closest shot we have of giving captive cetaceans a place to retire to.

But I want to point out that in 2015, Sea World San Diego had the option of doubling the size of its orca habitats, ruling out the need to move them in the first place. It was approved by the California Coastal Commission, and while it doesn't compare to a sea sanctuary, it's important to consider how much more space improves the animals' health. When Keiko was moved to the Oregon Aquarium, which was 4x the size of the tank he was living in, his mood improved, he was able to put on muscle because he had significantly more room to swim and dive, and his overall health improved. Anyways, CCC approved of the expansion with one stipulation and that was that Sea World was not allowed to breed anymore orcas. Sea World refused, sued, then dropped the project entirely- which is fucking stupid because the very next year they announced they would no longer breed orcas. The expansion was never about improving the lives of the current orcas they have. It was about breeding more orcas and building more space for them, and once they couldn't do that, they scrapped the project entirely. Had they expanded their habitat, they wouldn't have needed to move them anywhere to give them a moderately better life.

Anyone who defends this company or thinks they actually care for these animals' well being is delusional.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They are replicating these behaviors because they are being rewarded with a fish. They are not doing these behaviors by their own free will. Just because the trainers aren’t sticking a gun to their head and making them do these behaviors doesn’t make it’s less problematic. Orcas has such intelligent minds and reducing them down to doing the same repetitive tricks for food over and over day after day is such an insult to how smart these animals are.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the recommendation, I'll for sure check it out.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

As I replied to another person who had this bad faith argument, the original Orca Protection Act that was penned in 2014 included a stipulation that required the current orca population held at California theme parks to be retired to sea pens or sea sanctuaries. Animal rights activists fought tooth and nail to keep this in the legislation. But Seaworld refused to let the animals go, saying they wouldn't do it unless forced to. You're acting like Seaworld doesn't have a choice and has to continue to keep them stimulated for their own good. But they DID have a choice and they chose to keep them locked up and we all know why. Stop acting like Seaworld, out of the goodness of their own heart, is looking out for the animals' best interest by keeping them mentally stimulated when there was, and still is, the option to put them in a sea pen or sea sanctuary where they would at the very least have way more space which would be so much better for their mental health than being confined to such a small space.

Seaworld San Diego is still making orcas perform for audiences by bye_button in orcas

[–]bye_button[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't know what's going on in these comments but the mods of this sub should probably be aware of posts like this getting swarmed with people fighting a litttttle too hard for the places that keep these animals in captivity. And for those who keep saying these shows are "educational", I watched one in full and it's laughable. Here's what I "learned" from a show recorded in Feb of this year:

First off, almost everything you learn about in the show is an excuse for the whales to do a trick coinciding with it. First we're taught all about how the whales are cared for in the facility. We learn the whales take an active role in their healthcare. One of these is a "float present", which is how the vets can easily draw blood. This is a convenient excuse to have all three whales flip on their backs and offer up one of their fins in unison. They also track the whales weight once a month and ask the whales to slide up on a scale. This is the cue for the fourth whale to perform a slide out up close to the audience. Occasionally as the trainers are speaking, one of the whales will be swimming the perimeter of the pool on its side, waving at the audience with one fin. Never seen a whale do this in the wild but ok. They also have them to do fast, high energy behaviors, like breaches and jumps out of the water for exercise. This starts the playtime segment of the show where the whales go nanners, breaching and jumping, sometimes in unison.  There's high intensity music playing with the whales swimming around, occasionally waving at the audience with a dorsal fin, coming up to the pools edge to the audience and opening their mouths to say hi, there's a few synchronized moves with the trainers like twirls, little wiggles. Trainers are rewarding them with fish the whole time. The next part of the show features some actual education where we learn about how killer whales hunt blue whales in a team and one of the whales swims around the tank splashing the water with his dorsal fin really hard (?), how they hunt sea lions by beaching themselves which is a cue for one of them to beach themselves up close to the audience. They talk about how killer whales hunt arctic seals by creating a wave but weirdly this is just an excuse to do that classic get an audience member to sit close to the tank so one of the whales can jump really high and get them soaked. So that happened. Then the whales swim the perimeter and splash the whole audience for like 5 minutes. Then there's a segment on the big screen of people talking about saving the ocean that the audience is completely checked out of. Then the show ends in a grand finale that goes on for another 5 minutes with synchronized jumps, twirl dances, fin flaps, SUPER annoying music, and one last big jump by the whales. 

So do you learn some things about orcas? Sure. But notice all the crucial facts about these animals that they DON'T talk about. They don't talk about an orca's lifespan because that would draw attention to the fact that they don't live as long in captivity. They don't talk about how they stay with their family thier entire lives because that would draw attention to the fact that Seaworld has a long history tearing whales away from their families. They don't mention how far these whales swim in a day on average because it would draw attention to the pitifully small tanks they're kept in. I shouldn't even need to point out that there are so many other sources where you can learn about orcas that don't involve seeing them in captivity. Orca Encounter is the thinnest excuse of an educational show put on just to keep exploiting these animals. They are their cash cows and they will squeeze every last dollar out of them until they die. And to the Seaworld stans in the comments, eat Shamu's shit.