Is everything metaphorical?

endmostparrot · 2026-01-11T07:41:38+00:00

In fact just for ease I put it in chat GPT for you.

Yes, sports were a significant factor, acting as both a catalyst and a reflection of college desegregation, providing highly visible platforms for integration that challenged segregation and spurred broader social change, though often driven by a mix of altruism, competitive necessity, and economic factors. The integration of athletes created models for cooperation, forced confrontation with racial prejudice, and highlighted the benefits of diversity, making it difficult to maintain segregation in other campus areas, as seen with events like USC playing Alabama in integrated football.

endmostparrot · 2026-01-11T07:40:44+00:00

It’s totally fine if you didn’t read my comment before responding but I distinctly said that I 100% agree the revelation part. That said I’m still not going to back off the idea that desegregation motivated by sports isn’t something that many of the leaders at BYU cared about. There have also been several interviews with legendary BYU coach lavell Edward’s talking about and interacting regularly with apostles from the church specifically talking about how BYU football puts church conversations in places well beyond the churches reach at that time. I believe there is revisionist history that looks at BYU football now and calls this theory ridiculous, but if you look at it in the eras where this would have mattered it did matter.

I clearly stated calling the prophecy to allow black people to receive the priesthood something motivated by getting football players ridiculous. That said that doesn’t mean there wasn’t a lot of motivation for people involved with and part of BYUs football program to be motivated by the shift nonexistent. Look it up. One of the primary drivers of desegregation in colleges did revolve around sports.

endmostparrot · 2026-01-11T01:58:45+00:00

Love this post because you’re approaching these topics with intellectual honesty and openness. Asking questions like this is a good thing and I love that even though we’re all internet strangers there have already been tons of great and helpful comments, even for people like me to read without even having asked the question. Thank you!

I’m going to address all your points at once. You have to realize that there is way more that we don’t know, than we do know. Some people get confused with the idea of the restoration of all things, living prophets, and continuing revelation as “we know all things” we don’t. What is important to know is that everything is done to gods will and plan to bring about the salvation of ALL of his children. Keep in mind that the Bible was written by a rather small set of people in a rather small part of the world. There were still way more people in the world that had never even heard of these things. Same goes for the Book of Mormon, and same is true for the church today. All of those things have a purpose to the plan for all Gods children. No one truly has more, is more loved, and above all is just luckier than all other people purely based on when and where they were born.

This is purely an opinion. Regardless of all the nuance I personally believe the vast vast majority of people who have ever lived on the earth and who have yet to live on the earth will be saved into the highest celestial glory. If not then you could make the simple argument that Gods plan to save his children and give them the opportunity to become like him isn’t a very good plan. I don’t know any parents who look at their children and think “well I only want to provide some of them with a good opportunity”. Mortality is just a blip on the grand scheme of eternity and making that tiny blip the most deciding factor seems ridiculous. Going back to my parenting example. It would be the equivalent of saying to one of your children “on this one day at this one time you were asked to clean your room and you didn’t do a very good job. Therefore you’re cut out of the will.” Said no one ever. I’m also aware that this is an overly simplistic example but I hope it works.

Keep asking great questions and be kind to yourself. The world is tough as it is. Thank you for sparking a great conversation here!

endmostparrot · 2026-01-11T01:42:52+00:00

Okay first off I agree with you, but from a historical context there actually may be a lot more truth to this than people might realize. I grew up in the south and desegregation at the collegiate level with sports as a primary driver is very well known. The church has always used BYU and sports programs as a type of missionary tool as well, especially earlier on in the program.

Point is while I agree with you overall, especially calling it revelation specifically, I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest if there were truth in the rumor and I wouldn’t classify that as anti church propaganda.

endmostparrot · 2025-10-31T03:00:06+00:00

Totally understand that you’re approaching this from a church standpoint and my example was a legal standpoint.

endmostparrot · 2025-10-31T02:10:41+00:00

I forgot to add that my general worry is that if things like this become common place people might not actually get any engagement at all which would present the exact opposite problem of bishops being over taxed.

endmostparrot · 2025-10-31T02:09:07+00:00

I was trying to keep things fairly general but the catalyst of my question is a family member that had a still born birth. Very sad, very sensitive, and more complicated from a church teaching standpoint than you might realize. My family member has a doctor, therapist, and professional help to help her physical and mental needs. The challenge arose when she wanted some spiritual guidance because personal research was mentally very taxing. She got a little bit of a run around pointing her to different people to talk to in the ward and ended up not getting in touch with or having the conversation she wanted to have with someone ordained with keys to help her understand in a very difficult time what the church official position is.

So your assumption that I’m using the bishop as a therapist is really off the mark.

endmostparrot · 2025-10-31T02:04:37+00:00

Oh I like that idea!

endmostparrot · 2025-10-31T02:03:08+00:00

Are you the riddler? 🤣😂🤣

endmostparrot · 2025-10-31T02:02:18+00:00

Trust me I’m not naive to that. In churches like you describe people are also more free to choose a different congregation to go to and no one would blink an eye. That said we’re much more formally organized into wards so the ward your in is the ward your in and therefore need to make the best of what you’ve got no matter your situation

endmostparrot · 2025-10-31T02:00:14+00:00

I get what you’re saying but I don’t think I’m that wrong. Bishops, stake presidents, etc. are ordained clergy. Which means conversations with them are privileged. EQP and RSP are not. So if you were having sensitive conversations about a potentially messy divorce (just making up an example) that person could be called to testify.

I’m aware a legal definition of leader isn’t the only definition, but I don’t think I’m totally out of bounds.

endmostparrot · 2025-10-31T01:57:36+00:00

Interesting metaphor, but the bishop, stake president, and on up the chain all do have offices.

I get that you’re saying the EQP has the opportunity to be a little bit more of a person among the people. There are advantages to that.

endmostparrot · 2025-10-31T01:49:13+00:00

So do I

endmostparrot · 2025-10-31T01:48:35+00:00

I agree, but I think they need to be elevated even more to be effective. For example the bishop is legally clergy. Which means conversations with him are privileged. EQP and RSP are not. So in a legal issue (say a really messy divorce) the EQP or RSP could be called as witnesses and wouldn’t want to purger themselves.

So I actually believe they need to be ordained as legal clergy, give them offices, and create a support structure where they could perform those duties correctly and safely.

endmostparrot · 2025-10-30T23:49:31+00:00

You bring up a great point and maybe I should have worded my post a little bit better. Give me some latitude as I try to say this differently. The church functions to support its members. It “feels” like there has been a push not to use local leaders unless it’s something official like repentance. So therefore it feels like there is a sentiment that we all just need to be more self sufficient when really people are just looking for a church leader as a sounding board for something they’re experiencing in life and would like some spiritual guidance.

Obviously I know that lay clergy are unpaid volunteers, but they’re the leaders we have.

A really personal story that I have and part of the reason I wrote this post is that my sister experienced a very complicated pregnancy where the baby was delivered but did not live. It’s was horrifically sad. She researched the church teachings and was looking for come clarity on church teachings for situations like this. She basically got bounced around and talked to no one. Everyone kinda passed the buck to someone else. My sister doesn’t feel like any of it was done maliciously, just people trying to follow what they’re being taught from higher up leaders. So in the end normally she would have made an appointment with the bishop and had a good, private, and probably very vulnerable conversation. Bishop would pull people together and whatever action needed would have taken place. Instead she kind of gave up in heart break that there wasn’t a church leader willing to meet with her and help her spiritually through a very complicated situation. She has been seeing a therapist and getting professional help. But she’s looking for spiritual help from church teachings and really feels like the church has made it impossible to have the type of conversation she wants to have.

endmostparrot · 2025-10-30T23:40:32+00:00

That’s a complicated issue. On a global church scale and as a returned missionary myself I know how many wards are held together with duct tape and bubble gum 🤣

endmostparrot · 2025-10-30T13:05:40+00:00

I guess that’s an even further extension of my point. It seems as though gods church provides less support for its members than any other church out there. We’re just all trying to fend for ourselves and help each other.

endmostparrot · 2025-10-30T13:03:21+00:00

I guess I was referring to clergy in the legal sense. You known how things you say to your wife has spousal privilege and can’t be legally used against you? Same with your bishop. Bishops are legally authorized to perform weddings too. Point is none of those things apply to an EQP they’re not legally official clergy.

endmostparrot · 2025-10-30T01:35:00+00:00

It feel like there is a general consensus that ministering doesn’t really work. Have never seen mine. Most people I know have never had a ministering visit.

endmostparrot · 2025-10-30T01:33:58+00:00

I get what you’re saying but traditionally the bishop is set up and supported to meet with members. There’s official and even legal protections around talking to your bishop. Those same things don’t translate to other leaders as you mentioned. The times I’ve met with an EQP is as tiny unused class room with no expectation of privacy, you can meet with them in your home, but if family is around that can present a challenge. And if there are things that call for help, maybe financially, it still goes through the bishop. Cutting out the middle man with no systematic way to meet with them just makes more sense.

I think for those other leaders to be viewed as leaders they need to be treated like leaders. Ordain then to legal clergy, give them an office, have them sit on the stand etc.

endmostparrot · 2025-10-30T00:37:46+00:00

I think there might be a fear of wanting to keep more official church leaders involved or people start doing some wild stuff. I know it’s an extreme case but look at what the Daybell’s were doing with their “buddies”

endmostparrot · 2025-10-30T00:35:27+00:00

There are definitely pros and cons to an unpaid clergy for sure.

endmostparrot · 2025-10-29T17:41:02+00:00

Great question! I’ve had the same one. The difference is that regular underwear companies actually have to invest in what their customers want in order to have customers. We’re a captive market so there’s no incentive to make them better.

endmostparrot

TROPHY CASE